405th Logo Update

All in all I'm really beginning to feel the whole idea of ranks, tiers, levels, or whatever the heck they're called...yea, just forget the whole thing. New members, "verified" members, and staff. That's what it's been since I joined. I started to think maybe it could do with a reboot, a bit of spit and polish, make it "cooler" and add different stages to work towards to add a sense of "achievement" for those of us who can't get to work on our suits yet for whatever reason. With all the proposed "systems" one ting always comes out, a subtle undertone that says "If you haven't actually built a suit yet, you're nothing but a spectator, a lurker, this isn't the place for you yet." Maybe I'm just reading into it way more than I should, but that's how it felt. Give a badge to those who have completed a suit, certainly. They put a lot of work into it and should be recognized, and people who are looking for others with complete suits for whatever reason will have that mark to find them without making other members feel like "if you haven't built a suit, you haven't done anything noteworthy."

I urge you to give us a chance. We'e had a similar setup at the 405th Pacific for a while (keeping note of who has completed suits) and have always managed to make people feel included, even people who don't have suits and never intend to build one. And if anyone ever makes someone feel they haven't done anything noteworthy simply because they don't have a finished suit, we spartan kick them into space.

RobotChicken said:

This thread has turned into pages of posts regarding ranks, yet the title is 405th Logo Update. I'd rather see the new logo being released as a higher priority than any final decisions regarding ranks. Perhaps all this ranking discussion can be moved to an appropriately-titled dedicated thread, and keep this one just for updates/comments about the new logo?

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Agreed. I almost missed the post about getting the logos remade by the original creator. I think it'd be good to create a new thread, but since it's such a major 405th topic, I'll leave it to Art to start it off the way he feels best.

Art Andrews said:

Tell me how you envision that working out... the actual nuts and bolts of it. I think you will find, very quickly that it is very complex, very arbitrary and will create more unbalance and a sense of favoritism than anything we are proposing.

Now... don't get me wrong. I was convinced a couple dozen posts ago that there needs to be more emphasis put on members who support the community but don't build themselves and am reworking a number of elements of the Covenant to support that concept... but if you can come up with a practical solution that doesn't involve post count or join date, that doesn't involve a massive amount of arbitrary decisions and won't create a lot of people feeling that there is favoritism, well, I'd be all for hearing it.

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Trooper0621 said:

And as for 'infantryman' status, user "Revenge" has 32 posts over the course of the last 2 years. She is just as much a member of this community. She spent multiple days at Wondercon manning a booth, answering questions. And yet this forum system would classify her as a 'noob' based off of the fact that she participates more in the local community than the forum community. That's why it's arbitrary. There's more to the 405th than just the forums. We are far bigger than that.

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I would say Trooper definitely hit the nail on the head about my concern. I really like the badge system that was mentioned, perhaps UNSC styled bars and stripes for different accomplishments that can be awarded based on off AND on-forum participation? I think that would work pretty well. Keep ranks off of the forum, but let everyone that is online-only represent their accomplishments with different commendations.

Either way I greatly appreciate taking the time to listen to everyone's concerns and ideas. I'm completely confident things will work out in the end.

I wouldn't mind help running a North East regiment. It would be small, but hoping all this new stuff will help change that. As for members who have been around for a while, here's and idea.

In the marine corps, they have what they call service stripes, which represent a certain amount of time spent in the corps, in and out of war:


you can see them here on the sleeves of the marine's dress blues.


Now, I'm not saying they have to be exactly like this, but maybe something similar to add to the emblem or badge of rank, so that even some who is, say, tier 1 can have something additional to prove their time in the community. That way, although if someone is new, but made a lot of stuff, they will have a nice emblem to represent that, and someone who has been around a while can have something to detail or buff out their lesser emblem to stand out from someone fresh outta the noob section.

Just a thought.

I could certainly see value in something like that, but want to be VERY careful in how we approach it (I am having to do the same as we are working on the 405th Covenant). With the 405th being a fantasy military organization, it is very important that we try to make sure that we never get too close to the real military, even though the Halo universe and we are certainly taking cues from it. We would never want anyone to mistake us for trying to take on any of the honor that our real servicemen and women around the world deserve for the job they perform. With that being said, we might be able to fit something like this in.

AI Blue Fox said:

I wouldn't mind help running a North East regiment. It would be small, but hoping all this new stuff will help change that. As for members who have been around for a while, here's and idea.

In the marine corps, they have what they call service stripes, which represent a certain amount of time spent in the corps, in and out of war:

you can see them here on the sleeves of the marine's dress blues.
View attachment 918

Now, I'm not saying they have to be exactly like this, but maybe something similar to add to the emblem or badge of rank, so that even some who is, say, tier 1 can have something additional to prove their time in the community. That way, although if someone is new, but made a lot of stuff, they will have a nice emblem to represent that, and someone who has been around a while can have something to detail or buff out their lesser emblem to stand out from someone fresh outta the noob section.

Just a thought.

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Accolades. That might work.

Something like this:

(Excuse the Paint quality example)

Basically, everyone gets a little bar under their name that shows what they've accomplished.
Crafted a full suit? Get a blue stripe.
Attended a con? Get a red stripe.
Outstanding contribution or service to the 405th community? Gold stripe. (Tutorials/3d models/etc)
X years of membership? Green stripe.
You get the idea.

It's simple, and shows how you participate without particular discrimination to those that can't attend cons/build/model, but CAN do something else.
If you want that X stripe, you'll know how to get it, and will give you something to work towards.


Just my two cents.

MissingSpartan7 said:

Accolades. That might work.

Something like this:

(Excuse the Paint quality example)

Basically, everyone gets a little bar under their name that shows what they've accomplished.
Crafted a full suit? Get a blue stripe.
Attended a con? Get a red stripe.
Outstanding contribution or service to the 405th community? Gold stripe. (Tutorials/3d models/etc)
X years of membership? Green stripe.
You get the idea.

It's simple, and shows how you participate without particular discrimination to those that can't attend cons/build/model, but CAN do something else.
If you want that X stripe, you'll know how to get it, and will give you something to work towards.


Just my two cents.

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I really like this idea.

I've been meaning to come up with a visual of how I think we could approach our profile details on our posts as well.

I'll try to work on it this week.


This discussion has blown up, there are still a few posts I need to go back and fully read through.

Trooper0621 said:

I urge you to give us a chance. We've had a similar setup at the 405th Pacific for a while (keeping note of who has completed suits) and have always managed to make people feel included, even people who don't have suits and never intend to build one. And if anyone ever makes someone feel they haven't done anything noteworthy simply because they don't have a finished suit, we spartan kick them into space.

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But that still doesn't resolve a rather pertinent problem the the proposed tier/rank systems. Click "member list" and check out the numbers. 19,616 members. Even if we were to assume that half of those are as-yet unchecked "spambot" accounts, that's still roughly 10,000 legitimate members. For the sake of argument, let's say that half of those are inactive accounts from people who have no interest in returning and bring us down to 5,000 active, legitimate members. Now go check the "how many completed suits" thread, or the "hall of honor" thread that basically serves the same function. The first has 328 completed suits on a thread begun in late 2010. Hall of Honor doesn't have a number count but even if we were to give it the benefit of the doubt and say that of the 217 posts on that thread each one is a completed suit and not a WIP or "cheerleader" post AND that none of the suits posted in there are repeats from the first thread, and that neither of these threads includes any individual member counting multiple suits from their own collection. That puts us a little over 500 completed suits. 500 out of 5,000 active, legitimate members, and that's assuming everyone who contributed to that 500 is still actively a part of the community. THat means at best only 10% of the entire community is "legit" enough for the 405th "Club."

Now let's wipe away all the assumptions because let's face it, we can't assume anything. More than likely that means at least half the "Hall of Honor" suits are repeats from the "Completed Suits" thread,, most likely at least a third overall aren't active any more and another third are multiple builds form the same individuals, and since we can't assume any of them are spam or dead accounts, we have to count the full 19,616, which means less than 2% of the entire 405th is in any way "eligible" for recognition for having a full, complete, and "noteworthy" suit. Oh, and that's not taking into account the handful of non-Halo builds in these threads. Because apparently they have to call themselves something other than 405th because the "all inclusive, new and improved 405th" only cares about Halo. Less than 2%. So again I have to wonder, just how the heck is this supposed to be "inclusive" and "community-centric" and in any way beneficial to the 405th on a whole when less than 2% of the entire 405th can even begin to qualify?

MissingSpartan7 said:

Accolades. That might work.

Something like this:

(Excuse the Paint quality example)

Basically, everyone gets a little bar under their name that shows what they've accomplished.
Crafted a full suit? Get a blue stripe.
Attended a con? Get a red stripe.
Outstanding contribution or service to the 405th community? Gold stripe. (Tutorials/3d models/etc)
X years of membership? Green stripe.
You get the idea.

It's simple, and shows how you participate without particular discrimination to those that can't attend cons/build/model, but CAN do something else.
If you want that X stripe, you'll know how to get it, and will give you something to work towards.


Just my two cents.

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That I can get behind a little more. No ranks, no tiers, no restrictions on how you can show your dedication to the community, just recognition for what you do without saying, implicitly or explicitly, that someone doesn't belong in a certain part of the group because they haven't done something. Trust me on this, speaking from my own personal perspective, we already get that feeling of being "left behind" every time the next convention is announced, or people come back with pictures from the most recent con, or even just watching someone else's progress on their own build. I mean every single time I log on I look around and see at least a dozen separate posts that make me say "damn, I hope some day that could be me." We don't need the added mud kicked in our collective faces by being told we aren't "good enough" or simply haven't "done enough" to be worthy of special recognition. We get enough of that watching our peers heap on the praise for someone else's success. And I'm not saying that praise isn't well deserved. Far from it. We've got some absolutely phenomenal builders in the 405th. But that's just it. We have some phenomenal builders, and we have some who are developing their skills. But again, less than 2% "qualified." "Some" does not make a community. If what we truly want is something that caters to the community, it has to cater to the ENTIRE community, not a minority within the community being elevated to "elite" status. I don't care if somebody else gets 37 accolade stripes and I only get one for the small handful of pep models I've unfolded. They earned that. But don't tell me until I do what they do at the level they do it (and unfortunately in many cases it comes down to the level they can afford to do it), I shouldn't be as much a part of this community as anyone else.

I'm starting to see the truth behind the phrase "everything old is new again." I've mentioned some of the phrasing in the old logo agreement that basically said we're not allowed to use it unless "officially endorsed" to do so. I recall there also being something either in that literature or in the "charter" that basically said "You are NOT a part of the 405th. You are a member of the forums administered by the 405th and can never refer to yourself as anything more than that," which tied into the restriction on using the logo because that was "for official 405th use only" and clearly, we were not the 405th. I was hoping the regime change would also mean the end to that, but all this talk of forming a 405th "club" and whatnot kinda feels like a rerun to me.

You keep saying people without suits aren't included in the community/club/whatnot, but that entire premise is wrong, so there's no real point in pointing out what % of people have built a full suit.

Where does anyone say you aren't good enough or haven't done enough? The only person saying that is you from what I can see.

Show me an instance where a member f the 405th pacific, the closest thing to the proposed system, has looked down on anyone for not having a completed suit. And I will find that person and spartan kick them.


PS I like the accolades

Not to stir the pot and just adding my two cents but would something that the user can select somewhere in the profile that says what they do be something? For example i could go into a tab in the editor of my profile and have a drop dow menu with things such as builder, unfolder, and modeler work? I think something that identifies what the user does to contribue is more important than a ranking system. As of now people have to go into, or make, a thread asking for a request. If there was a way or section to identify those who can unfold, build, or model of any quality would be a wonderous help.

Zaff,as someone who felt very similar to you about this, it took a reread of everything thats been posted to really understand. Its less "don't use it you aren't official" and more like "we are still putting things together, so wait till we have everything finished then go crazy." I'm not gonna lie, I probably could have put more time in to complete a suit or offer more advice to newcomers. heck, you can see big gaps between my visits to the site. The ranking system is, from what i understand, a individual style version of the elite section. If your build was great it got moved there, and with this rank system, it is kinda like a badge that says "My stuff got moved there, and I might be good for events"

I too would like to make clear that we are ALL in this together (not in a high school drama sort of way) and if the "new regime" does try and take the 405th in a direction we all don't approve of, it won't go there. Think of it like a group of men carrying a log, the guy in front may change, and suggest places to go, but without the support of the other men, even losing one man, could stop that progression quick.

And Art, I think possibly using more terminology that addresses it like "lets see what we can do together" and less of "this is what "we" decided" as in the past the mods were all active members of the community and adam, although the founder, was always treated, and acted like, a fellow member and nothing really more. Heck, he was one of the first people to welcome me here and I was just some noob kid with a dumb thread. As long as we all help make the decisions for whats best for the site, we will continue to move forward on a positive note.




P.S. with the stripe thing (love the added difference for cons and such ) will that be user editable (I go into settings and add and edit) or will we just have full time mods dedicated to that? Also, another stripe to simply signify costume (non halo) would be neat for someone like me (cosplay is a hobby, not just armor)

P.S.S. Trooper, it takes both sides to understand the other in order to solve this. Lets try to keep this a discussion and not an argument ok?

NoMaybeYes said:

Not to stir the pot and just adding my two cents but would something that the user can select somewhere in the profile that says what they do be something? For example i could go into a tab in the editor of my profile and have a drop dow menu with things such as builder, unfolder, and modeler work? I think something that identifies what the user does to contribue is more important than a ranking system. As of now people have to go into, or make, a thread asking for a request. If there was a way or section to identify those who can unfold, build, or model of any quality would be a wonderous help.

Click to expand...

That MIGHT be possible. I'd have to check into the technical side of it.

AI Blue Fox said:

Zaff,as someone who felt very similar to you about this, it took a reread of everything thats been posted to really understand. Its less "don't use it you aren't official" and more like "we are still putting things together, so wait till we have everything finished then go crazy." I'm not gonna lie, I probably could have put more time in to complete a suit or offer more advice to newcomers. heck, you can see big gaps between my visits to the site. The ranking system is, from what i understand, a individual style version of the elite section. If your build was great it got moved there, and with this rank system, it is kinda like a badge that says "My stuff got moved there, and I might be good for events"

I too would like to make clear that we are ALL in this together (not in a high school drama sort of way) and if the "new regime" does try and take the 405th in a direction we all don't approve of, it won't go there. Think of it like a group of men carrying a log, the guy in front may change, and suggest places to go, but without the support of the other men, even losing one man, could stop that progression quick.

And Art, I think possibly using more terminology that addresses it like "lets see what we can do together" and less of "this is what "we" decided" as in the past the mods were all active members of the community and adam, although the founder, was always treated, and acted like, a fellow member and nothing really more. Heck, he was one of the first people to welcome me here and I was just some noob kid with a dumb thread. As long as we all help make the decisions for whats best for the site, we will continue to move forward on a positive note.

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Thank you for your willingness to take a wait and see approach.

And you are right. We are definitely all in this together and while every step hasn't been public, we have been reaching out all over the place to different members for input and feedback and well as advice. I won't be shy about it... there are going to be a few things that will simply be a "this is the way it is going to have to be" but those almost always are because of a legal or technical reason. Outside of that, we are open to feedback and suggestions, but we are also keenly aware that too many cooks in the kitchen and endless input into a topic means nothing is ever actually accomplished, only discussed and talked about. We are all for talking but at the end of the day, as you have seen from the changes thus far; we are doers.

Trooper0621 said:

You keep saying people without suits aren't included in the community/club/whatnot, but that entire premise is wrong, so there's no real point in pointing out what % of people have built a full suit.

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Every suggestion thus far that has included any form of criteria for determining one's rank, tier, etc. has had the stipulation "complete at least one full-body suit of decent craftsmanship." Any talk of "Club membership" has had the same stipulation. So yea, I'll have to disagree with you and stand firm on the statement that the percentage of people within the community who actually qualify according to that stipulation is a pretty important factor to keep in mind. We don't need something that caters to 500 out of 20,000. We need something that benefits 20,000 out of 20,000 or at least as close to it as humanly possible. Something that caters to or only benefits 500 out of 20,000 is not "community minded," it is not "inclusive," and it is most certainly not "for the benefit of all." And I'm not even getting into the statistics of how many within that 500 would qualify for having attended a convention, much less having manned a booth. When you're starting point can only be met by a miniscule percentage of the community at large, and the numbers will only shrink down from there, let's not kid ourselves, that is elitism, not community.

So to answer your other questions, it's not so much that anyone has already shown exclusion, it's that the proposed changes and so-called "improvements" are abhorrently exclusive.

AI Blue Fox said:

Zaff,as someone who felt very similar to you about this, it took a reread of everything thats been posted to really understand. Its less "don't use it you aren't official" and more like "we are still putting things together, so wait till we have everything finished then go crazy."

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I don't mean to be snarky, but another reread is in order. I was referring to the old literature, the old charter and logo restrictions set in place before the current regime change. The stuff I had to read through and agree too (begrudgingly) when I first joined the 405th, and it basically all came across as "We, the people in charge, are the 405th. You are all just members of the forum that we run. You are not a part of the 405th, you are not endorsed by the 405th, nothing you build or create can even be marked in any way as being associated with the 405th unless we give you the official go-ahead." Basically, they came across as snobbish pricks and the only reason I put that aside was because I had no interest in using what at the time was a fairly complex and, in my own opinion, not very visually appealing logo, and even aside from that, I was somewhat obsessed with "accuracy" and thus any form of "405th" marking would be out of place on any build I did. I've been here more than 2 years and it's only in the last few months that I actually began to feel like I was part of anything here. People actually started responding and even recognizing me. I started to get recognition for my unfolding work and actually have had people PM me and request I work on unfolding specific models because they like the way I do it. I finally started to feel like I was carving out my own little nook in the community. And with the changing regime and the talk of being more "inclusive" and "less restrictive" and all this "make it yours" politicking, I felt like things would move faster not only for me, but for those who came after me and are still working to find their place in the 405th, and I got my hopes up feeling like we would finally be part of the 405th, not just the peanut gallery rumbling in the forums that belong to the 405th. Now it's kind of feeling like we're hitting another u-turn and we're headed right back to the "this is for the upper crust, and this is for the rest of you plebeians."

AI Blue Fox said:

I too would like to make clear that we are ALL in this together (not in a high school drama sort of way) and if the "new regime" does try and take the 405th in a direction we all don't approve of, it won't go there. Think of it like a group of men carrying a log, the guy in front may change, and suggest places to go, but without the support of the other men, even losing one man, could stop that progression quick.

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The problem, then, is that typically by the time it reaches that point, there aren't enough people left to pick the log back up again, so it's left there to rot. When the leadership is going in a direction the followers don't want to go in, they stop following. It's not a matter of "oh they'll stop carrying the log, but they'll still stay in the line and go where it goes. They let go, and they walk away, and it's highly unlikely they'll come back to it ever again. I don't want it to get to that point. And I'll take it a step further, I don't want to take the risk of it heading in that direction. Yea, change is always uncomfortable and rarely ever easy, but change for the sake of change is foolhardy.

You did note that people who do to have suits are still considered members right? And that we've talked extensively about ways to make sure they're included?

And regarding the old logo text, it's just that: old. Adam and Walt were not great legal jargon ists. But they let people use the logo.

Again, you keep saying people are heading to "this is for the upper crust, not for plebs". But you don't have any examples of that. Did you ever talk to Adam about using the logo? He's always said yes you can use it. If you assume they're snobbish without even talking to them, that's a personal issue. To try and paint the whole organization based off your assumptions is poor.

I am Proud to say that I am a 405th Member. Would i like to see the 405th take the next step and be recognized as an Official Club? Yes, why you may ask, because if there are events in an area that we can panel at we would be seen as official spokespeople of the 405th, we can share what we do with a large audience that would be interested in what we do. Can we do that now? Yes we can, but as an organized and structured "club" we can also can say that we have the greatest and most helpful community around. We have had members in music videos, parade's, fan made films, and all other sorts of things.

As it stands right now, were just a huge group of halo fans. There was little structure and origination with the last leadership. The community as a whole didn't know where the 405th was going. There were tons of folks effected by not being able to see the website, favoritism ran rampant, and all other sorts of things that effected the community. If the last leadership hadn't handed the reins over to art the website would probably be down, and everything would be gone. Most things were set up on Facebook, regiments, events and the forums were full of spam.

Would i like to see some type of ranking system in place? Yes i would, so long as every member had a way to rank up. Be it 3D modelers, builders, unfolders or active posters. Over all it would give people a goal to rank up, the challenge, I would think, would be accepted by the community and we would rise to the occasion. Modelers my post a little bit more, builders may be more friendly, and it may also give the little nudge for someone that didn't want to make armor to start a suit. So long as it was in there goal to be a certain rank.

Also being an official club, it may also push the community to be more active in our local community. We could set up events to visit with sick children at hospitals, meet up for coffee at starbucks, or even show up in force to our local games. Being an official "club" it would be much easier to say visit a hospital, there are many kids that don't have a bright outlook dealing with there health. But having a few 405th members show up in full armor with maybe a few other folks just wearing a 405th Tee-shirt they would be able to tell the kids how our armor is made and answer questions that they may have.

I hope that maybe this will help share my idea's what the 405th could be. Yes there will be bumps in the road, always will be, but if current leadership engages the community as a whole we can both learn from each other and make the 405th flourish. The leadership as is has already engaged the community, and has allowed some leeway for the regiments to see how we do and it was stated up front that it is a test as there are no formalized rules for us. We are just glade to be given the chance, that we are willing to have active discussions and a place to call home other then Facebook. If leadership didn't agree with something that we were in discussion with in our section of the forum we would hope they they would post there thoughts/idea's where our active discussion was.

Here is a suggestion that i do have, what about some awesome 405th shirts that could be made for our members. This would also allow members that don't want to make armor to show up to events and still rock something from the 405th. We could still do group photos, and everything else with them and it would allow everyone to be proud to say that they are part of the 405th community. Even on the local level of the 405th there have been members that have done parade's and it would give any 405th member a reason to show up and show there face and backed by a small army of spartans.

A lot if our pacific regiment members rock 405th hats in casual attire and it adds a great sense of community to see a fellow 405thee, even out of armor. Shirts and hats are a must :3


And I love what your thoughts are, especially with getting the 405th involved in local charities. That's one of the reasons I pushed to make the Pacific, and why we hold so many panels and educational events

Alright, Zaff, let me make this clear. In life, those who put in the effort get rewarded and recognized. You won't get something for nothing. Perhaps you should go watch Adam's introductory video again. Here, let me link you:

^THAT is what we are about. This idea is simply for an outward portrayal for events, which we never had before because unlike the 501st, aren't and official organization (which is why you don't need to be 18)

It wasn't "we are the 405th, you all are guests" it was "the 405th is a community, not an organization, no lets learn build and have fun together."

People who feel wronged or left out can voice their opinions. Don't try to represent people who might not agree with you. Also, I'm pretty sure the current # of active members is well under 500




As a friend of Adam and a long time member of the site, I'll end with this: Change is scary, but those who do not adapt to the flow of change will be left behind in the sands of the past.

Fireryne said:

Here is a suggestion that i do have, what about some awesome 405th shirts that could be made for our members. This would also allow members that don't want to make armor to show up to events and still rock something from the 405th. We could still do group photos, and everything else with them and it would allow everyone to be proud to say that they are part of the 405th community. Even on the local level of the 405th there have been members that have done parade's and it would give any 405th member a reason to show up and show there face and backed by a small army of spartans.

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Already in the works. :thumbsup