405th Logo Update

AI Blue Fox said:

Also, I'm pretty sure the current # of active members is well under 500

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Based on what we are seeing at the moment... under 100...

But... the nice thing is, we hope, as people realize the site is stable again and as Google begins to give us authority again, that this will change. We also hope that a greater and more visible presence at the local level will really help!

Trooper0621 said:

You did note that people who do to have suits are still considered members right? And that we've talked extensively about ways to make sure they're included?

And regarding the old logo text, it's just that: old. Adam and Walt were not great legal jargon ists. But they let people use the logo.

Again, you keep saying people are heading to "this is for the upper crust, not for plebs". But you don't have any examples of that. Did you ever talk to Adam about using the logo? He's always said yes you can use it. If you assume they're snobbish without even talking to them, that's a personal issue. To try and paint the whole organization based off your assumptions is poor.

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No, I never did speak to Adam or Walt. Quite honestly I can't say whether I have ever talked to anyone "in charge" prior to this change-over, and quite frankly I didn't even know WHO was in charge before this. Closest I knew to anyone being "in charge" of anything is I know MS7 runs the "officially endorsed" 4-shared database. BEyond that, it always felt like I was in my little fiefdom down here and whoever was running this site was...well I don't know where. That's part of what got me excited initially when I saw the announcements of the 405th changing hands. Now I actually had a name to put to the "powers that be."

And yes, the old text is old. I was just hoping that with all the talk of change and how we can improve things, the old would stay old and not become the "new." The implication that we can't consider ourselves anything other than wet-behind-the-ears rookies without having completed x number of suits and attended x number of conventions with x number of photos of us in our suits at said conventions to prove we were actually there (rantingly paraphrased from I believe it was WandererTJ's suggested tier designation criteria posted a page or two back).

And what more example do you need? Saying that only members who fit the required criteria are eligible for membership into ANY part of the 405th, regiment, club, little Tammy's tea party, whatever you want to call it, and setting the lowest acceptable criteria as something only 500 out of currently 19,616 members can legitimately claim and prove...seriously I don't know if I have to climb up on the roof and start waving a flag to make this any more clear that that is exclusion, cold and hard. If someone opened up a gym, or a dance bar, or held a convention and they said "we're open to everyone and we won't turn anybody away," then set the cover charge at the door at $25,000, guess what? They're not open to "everyone" and they WILL turn pretty much anybody away because only a very small, select group can meet their initial requirement. Now yes, that example (and it is ONLY an example so please don't argue the semantics of it) is a bit extreme and a full suit certainly costs significantly less than $25,000 to construct, but when you take the cost of building a full suit to completion and of sufficient quality to net approval as having met the requirement, and then add the cost of attending even one convention (a few hundred for the hotel, a couple hundred more for the con itself, food costs, merch costs, travel costs, the added cost of having to ship your suit or else shell out for gas to drive to the con with it in the trunk), that sets the bar pretty dang high. Hence why only 500 at best have reached the point of just having the suit. And again as I mentioned previously, this isn't about what has happened, as these requirements and criteria have not yet been implemented. The problem I have is that there is talk of them being implemented, and I, as just one of the 19,116 members who DON'T have a full suit under our belts, want the ENTIRE community to be taken into consideration here, and I really do not feel that it is at all. I mean at least TJ made some allowance in listing off several possible requirements and suggesting "complete 3 out of 5," but I've been here 2 years and short of post count and longevity the only criteria of any tier I would meet spawns from having unfolded some files that were either modeled or extracted by other members who, because they had just put out a handful of models themselves and had dozens more in their queue, didn't have the time in that moment to tackle unfolding themselves, and that only accounts for maybe half the models I've unfolded, the other half having already been unfolded before, I just re-worked them to fit my own approach. So that would put me, as well as many members who have been here several years longer than I have, into the same grouping as the (strictly hypothetical) newbie who just joined last night and can't tell a heat gun from a hair dryer. I said it before and I wasn't the only one to hold this sentiment; that's a slap in the face that says "you haven't done enough to be worthy of attention."

I'm just going to point out that the only requirement for being a member is an account on the forums. You have the exact same rank as Art, the site admin. So all 19,616 members can claim membership status, not 500.

Art Andrews said:

We also hope that a greater and more visible presence at the local level will really help!

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Okay, so let's get some more presence around here. What ideas do you have in mind?

I admin a Facebook page that is about halo cosplay and wrote an article to try to help direct some of the fans of that page to this site. I am offering up my halo builds as guinea pigs to the local university as special project and promotional tool for their software systems programs, I think this project may even spawn the creation of a halo cosplay club at that school to continue implementing awesome features to the armour builds. The 405th will most likely be advertised along with the suit at any events we go to. That's what I am DOING.

Somethings I think would be cool to do are to have 405th meet ups sometimes in suits, sometimes just to get together and work on our suits. Honestly having 2 or 3, or more, Spartans at a local game store, or coffee shop handing out a card with 405th info to every person who asked what they were wearing would be kinda fun. I also have been thinking of offering workshops to a couple youth groups that I know the organizers of, although I might wait to see the rating of halo 5 before doing this. This is what I hope to DO.

Now, what else?

And I am going to point out for what, the fifth time now, that I am referring to the system of requirements that is being proposed for implementation IN THE NEAR FUTURE. Right now, yea, all I need a is a pulse and a password, but RIGHT NOW there is talk of major changes. I'm going to go up on the roof now. Where's my flag.

And just for some perspective since we're calling into question just how many of the 19,000+ are actually active and Art's estimate of under 100, the "Hall of Honor" thread has seen 5 whole posts since 2012. The "how many completed suits" thread hasn't been touched since December of last year, so that certainly doesn't set itself up as a beacon of activity. Let's be generous and double that number because not everyone who has completed a suit has necessarily posted in either of these threads. That makes 10. Granted 10 out of less than 100 is a significant improvement in percentage over 500 out of 19,000, but still a notable minority.

To address AI Fox, I'm not asking for "something for nothing." Quite the contrary I'm simply asking that "something " is not made out to be "nothing," and to clarify that implementing a "rank/tier/whatever" system that makes no differentiation between a complete newbie and someone who has hand-crafted, molded, and cast hundreds of high-quality props and armor pieces but simply has not gotten around to putting together a full suit for him or herself is doing exactly that, taking something and basically saying it's the same as nothing.

And Fireryne, I asked this question directly to Art through PM and I'll say the "answer" was rather unsatisfactory, so I'll put it to you and anyone else who cares to chime in: why do we need a "club?" Why do we need to make anything so "formal" or "official?" Members of the 405th are already well recognized and given the spotlight by 343 and other professional and independent entities with offers of promotional work, requesting convention presence, and so forth. So as far as "getting the brand out there" goes: mission already well accomplished. They already know who we are and what we are capable of and that was achieved without any requirement beyond, as I said, "a password and a pulse." So why exactly does the 405th need a club? I am not the only one who has voiced numerous concerns and potential hazards that could come from implementing a club, so the "why not" is well in hand, but I'm still waiting for someone, anyone at this point, to give a suitable answer for "why."

When you talk about recognition by 343i, a large portion if it is due to members who are interested in the costume club aspect and already implement the ideas proposed by Art.

And all of our members are included as full members, regardless of costume status.

The system has already been implemented outside of the forum. That whole last paragraph is largely due something very similar to the proposed system.

I know who in my regiment is working on costumes and who has completed them and how many they can field on short notice. When machinima emails me asking for suits for an E3 party I can give them a response extremely rapidly precisely because I keep tabs on this.

If you think good relations with 343i were achieved with just a password and a pulse, I have a lot of back and forth emails with MS community managers and a business card from a senior producer at 343i to argue otherwise.

A lot of members work extremely hard to make sure we remain on 343 and the rest of the industry's radar, holding gatherings, hosting panels, manning tables, and answering the call when they say they need a movie quality costume in two weeks.

Trooper0621 said:

When you talk about recognition by 343i, a large portion if it is due to members who are interested in the costume club aspect and already implement the ideas proposed by Art.

And all of our members are included as full members, regardless of costume status.

The system has already been implemented outside of the forum. That whole last paragraph is largely due something very similar to the proposed system.

I know who in my regiment is working on costumes and who has completed them and how many they can field on short notice. When machinima emails me asking for suits for an E3 party I can give them a response extremely rapidly precisely because I keep tabs on this.

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And do you tell any of your members that they can't join the Pacific (and thus simply be a part of a localised group for purposes OTHER than convention presence and promotional opportunities...you know, like just hanging out and socialising) unless they have a completed suit? Because that is what I've been hearing suggested for the last several pages here both within and in addition to the 405th as a whole, collectively referred to in concept as "the 405th club" or simply "the club." And there have been implications of turning the entire 405th into such a club and stamping requirements on membership beyond the aforementioned "password and a pulse." I do not like this implication. I do not like the idea of needing any kind of official or formalized "club." The 405th has been, at least in concept, a community since its conception. A community. Very informal, very loose, just a gathering of like-minded people with similar hobbies, passions, and interests who have come together to share ideas, tricks of the trade, and to involve themselves in each other's successes and failures so that no one feels they are going it alone. The very concept of a "club," particularly when taken in conjunction with the implications suggested for said "club," takes that entire concept of community, crumbles it into a neat, tight little ball, and tosses it in the trash by making everything "formalized" and "official" and having to meet standard required criteria. You want criteria? Don't take someone else's work and claim it as your own. Game-ripped assets are a shifting sand and you should be fully prepared to trash anything you have built with them should any form of cease and desist order come down from those who own the copyrights of said assets. Beyond that, don't be a jerk and don't do anything else illegal. Oh, and for safety's sake, wear a respirator when working with resins. There, all the criteria we could ever need. Why would anyone want to make things more complicated and thus less fun and creative just for the sake of calling "official" what has already been officially recognised? Change for change's sake.

Our requirements for the Pacific are posted in our board under "discussion: community guidelines" and they are actually stricter than Art's. We required people to be vetted by a current member because we ran into issues of some people in Halo armor harassing 343i staff for handouts.

Pacific's guidelines actually have to be loosened to fall in line with the 405th's proposed standards.

Keep in mind that although we state that the only official members were those with costumes, in practice anyone was referred to and treated as a member.

Hence, it was basically the same thing Art proposed, where it was just a term used to describe people w completed suits.

Look, I want this place to thrive again as much as anyone. Are there things in discussion(read that again, DISCUSSION, meaning being discussed among people, including us) about ranks or logo usage that I'm a bit leery of? Yes, very much. But I'm waiting to see how it rolls out into use before I make any hard judgements. Making arguments and ranting is really just going to make more divisions, and no huge changes have even been made yet. I don't post a great amount(or at least until recently), but even at that, it seems to me that Art has, at the very least, the best interests for the community. He does listen to what we have to say, even if he doesn't agree, but he explains why he doesn't as well.

Zaff, unfolding and all the things you've done for the 405th is outstanding, and should be recognized, Art even said people that do behind the armor type support work deserve recognition. But should not the act of providing a service not be it's own reward? I do stuff all the time where I work that I know make a difference to my department, but I only get critiqued and rarely praised. I continue to do those things though, because me getting recognized is secondary to the fact that it gets done. If I were to provide any tidbit of information or whatnot and it helped someone greatly, that's all I need to feel good about having done it. We all understand your point, you're not liking what you are hearing. But you keep arguing and, quite frankly, making yourself look foolish. We all have thoughts about what's going on, we just need to voice them, let them be heard, but not beat people over the head with it. Let's wait and give Art some time to roll out some of the changes, and keep a constructive DISCUSSION going. The more time we argue, the longer it will take to let things happen. If things roll out and, over time, it doesn't pan out as intended, we make the needed changes.

The 405th getting organized can be a GOOD thing, because, as has been stated before, it will allow companies or charities to come here, find a regiment near them, and get in contact with a group near them. This is why keeping a list of completed suits can come in handy. Should having a suit be a requirement of being a part of a regiment? No, but only if there's no specific regiment designed for behind the scenes 405th members. Can something be worked out to find a middle ground? Possibly, depending on the limits of the forum software and what Art says.

Bottom line: It's fine to voice your opinion, but until things actually get put in place, let's just be patient and let things have some time to develop.

So in other words, it's not "open to everyone," it's exclusive, restricted, and thus does not truly embody "unity" nor "community," at least as I understand the dictionary's definition of those terms. So again I must ask, to anyone who will answer, why the heck would anyone want that as the standard for the 405th? I mean it was just earlier today that someone brought up I believe it was the 501st and their initial requirement of basically a film-ready full suit to even be considered for membership. That's not unity, that's not community, that's not inclusive. That's being elitist and in my own personal opinion, being a stuck-up snob whom I want absolutely no association with. When the Northeastern "Division" (as it was originally referred to before terminology became an issue) popped up, I was quick to add my name because I wanted to have my foot in the door so to speak with a group within the community that narrowed the focus down to the local area so I didn't feel quite so alone in quite so large a crowd. The very idea that that feeling could be taken away because I not only don't have a suit, but at my current morbidly slow rate of "Production" could take years before I have a suit of acceptable quality, I'll say it again: slap in the face. And for emphasis, let me add "kick in the pants."

Once again I have to ask: why? Why do we need this? Why does this particular aspect of the 405th have to be changed? Why do we need a "club?"

Hmmm..... Based on all these talks about Ranking system and being a part of a group, i was wondering instead of having ranks based on how active a member is or the number of suits he/she built, would you guys try implementing a title to each member based on their 'role' in the forum so to say such as 'Helper', Modeller, Unfolder etc. Besides that, i'd like to know if there are any members here from south east Asia like Malaysia, Singapore etc, maybe we could create our own minor regiment like 405th South East Asia (SEA) or something fun like that

Trooper0621 said:

If you think good relations with 343i were achieved with just a password and a pulse, I have a lot of back and forth emails with MS community managers and a business card from a senior producer at 343i to argue otherwise.

A lot of members work extremely hard to make sure we remain on 343 and the rest of the industry's radar, holding gatherings, hosting panels, manning tables, and answering the call when they say they need a movie quality costume in two weeks.

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And THIS is part of what we hope to help support and continue to foster! The Pacific Regiment has done an amazing job because it has great leadership and passionate members!

Jen-A266 said:

Hmmm..... Based on all these talks about Ranking system and being a part of a group, i was wondering instead of having ranks based on how active a member is or the number of suits he/she built, would you guys try implementing a title to each member based on their 'role' in the forum so to say such as 'Helper', Modeller, Unfolder etc. Besides that, i'd like to know if there are any members here from south east Asia like Malaysia, Singapore etc, maybe we could create our own minor regiment like 405th South East Asia (SEA) or something fun like that

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Nothing is set in stone at this point, but as a number of people aptly pointed out early on, it is important that we acknowledge what I only know to call support members (military slang is REMF) who help those who are building armor get it built. But this is a very tough thing to quantify and to acknowledge in a way that isn't very arbitrary. The thing is... together, we will all figure it out in time! I am sure we will try things that dont' work and when we see that they don't, we will kick it in reverse and head in a different direction until we find one that does work!

And once we get some parameters set I would LOVE to see the 405th SEA Regiment form!!!

To show this system at work, I asked ACDCrocker about how he felt being a suit less member of the 405th pacific.

Even if our wording was a bit restrictive (and again, we will change ours to align with the division) as long as this is the response we get from members, I think we are on the right track.

And pony has never been to any of our events. He participates strictly online.

ColFork85 said:

Zaff, unfolding and all the things you've done for the 405th is outstanding, and should be recognized, Art even said people that do behind the armor type support work deserve recognition. But should not the act of providing a service not be it's own reward?

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But in that same strain, is not the completion of a full suit and/or the attendance of a convention at which you meet with other members also it's own reward? Why then should that reward be worth membership to any localised group but the "behind the scenes" workers are relegated to a consolation compilation with no regional affiliation? I would imagine we aren't going to have the Pacific Costuming group and the Pacific Modeling group and the Pacific Unfolding group and the Pacific Tutorial group (and we all get the point of where I'm going here). So we have the regional groups that are essentially reserved for those who can do the promotional bit, but those who don't have a suit are just stuffed into a catch-all that feels like little more than an after-thought and aren't really a part of the local groups and the community within the community therein.

Divisions divide. And I can't shake the feeling that the more we try to bring these separate groups into focus, the more we're going to lose focus on the community as a collective whole, and while I understand that nobody wants that to happen, it feels like nobody is willing to acknowledge the very real possibility that it can happen if this current course is pursued. Which leads to why I have been so stubbornly and obnoxiously opposed to "moving forward and seeing what happens" because I'm all too familiar with the effect known by some as the "snowball" and by others as the "slippery slope," the idea that once a certain path has been started, by the time we realize it's not going the way we planned, and more importantly, that it's no longer worth pursuing, it becomes too late to turn back because the damage, whatever form it may be in, has already been done.

And I guess that's what I've really been trying to say all this time. I know change has to happen otherwise things stagnate. There needs to be motion, progress. But moving forward and moving in the right direction are not inherently the same, and this whole thing just does not feel right to me. I just don't want to end up coming out of this with any reason to put the 405th to my back and move on to something else.

And why a club? To make stuff like this possible:



In return for helping them with their panel, 343i have us a lot of stuff to give out to other members who couldn't make it.

Regional groups tend to lean toward the promotional but because it's something very region specific.

I can email someone in Pennsylvania my 3d files and work on them together with him. I cant meet up and hang out at the mall, as our Pacific members sometimes do. You have to be physically close to do that.

Zaff said:

But in that same strain, is not the completion of a full suit and/or the attendance of a convention at which you meet with other members also it's own reward?

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Since it seems you only want to respond to one thing from what I said, that tells me you didn't read the whole post, I shall respond to this part.

Yes it is. Does it matter that I would qualify under the PROPOSED(meaning not set in stone) requirements to be a part of the Midwest Regiment because I have a full suit and have been to conventions? Not really, I just had a ton of fun doing it. Even when I didn't have my suit, I would still direct people here.

And since you're so worried about not being in contact with other 405th members in your region, https://www.facebook.com/groups/203798869808486/?ref=br_rs There's a Facebook group for Northeastern members, so now you can connect with them.