Walter Spase
Well-Known Member
Spartan 051 said:
Everyone can edit the wiki...
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405th.com -- Costuming Wiki -- Tutorials
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Everyone can edit the wiki...
Deadguy said:
But isn't 90% of the info and the pep files (not the program you buy) from the 405th? so how is it the Halo costuming communities? Isn't it 405th property that has had the serial number filed off so to speak? And as of now aren't we free to join and receive the info here at the source?
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Spartan 051
Well-Known Member
Spase said:
Missed typed what i was going to say and i dont feel like to debate about it
DoC ByTeS said:
dont i dont get what your saying pep is from tamasoft the only thing the 405th have done is realize you can make life size models. The reason for community is to SHARE. I wouldnt use open sorce products if i couldnt share it or had a community to make it better
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Primal Weyland
Well-Known Member
*sighs*
Do I have to keep wandering through here, ducking past all the pacifiers being thrown around? Because I swear, sometimes I wonder if I'm not in a child's creche rather than a mature forum. I'm trying to be pleasant, calm and constructive here, and I'm half-wondering if I shouldn't call a conference on the Chat to try and resolve this all peacefully.
Please, one and all. Actually read one another's posts instead of leaping to conclusions and cocking your arm back for another throw.
Let's make this simple, OK? This entire topic should be as simple as an Easy-Bake oven.
I want to be a part of the 405th community. I really, really do - despite the obvious prejudices people have against me, and perhaps some of that I've earned, so let me set the record straight here, in the hopes that perhaps we can continue this discussion with a little less heat.
I have faith in the Staff here - I really do. despite what it might sound like, I do agree with the decisions the Staff take - most of the time. Sometimes I'm confused by their decisions, but that doesn't mean I think less of them. Yes, I have an attitude, which doesn't help me sometimes, but in reality, all I want to do is further this site and make it better.
But in this case, I have to disagree with the staff.
The Wiki, as it stands, is still a work in progress. Until everything is stabilised, I strongly advise against moving it - however, as someone that works on the content within the Wiki to a degree, I will assist in moving it if I am asked to.
The actual content is properly referenced and credited in either case - I see no reason to complain about credit, or lack thereof. Vrogy takes great pains to ask whether content can be hosted, and when possible, the work is referenced and credited.
Hosting the Wiki on Wikia is safer, for the reasons Vrogy outlined - trust or not, the content is better policed under Wikia regulations and is less likely to be tampered with irrepairably. Once the Wiki moves to 405th.com, those regulations and policing abilities are somewhat dumbed down, and the Wiki is essentially at the mercy of the Staff rather than the actual members of the site. That's not to say that the staff will instantly pounce all over the material and edit it to their own needs... but who's to say another Moderator might rise to power, become vindictive, and tamper with the content? Of course, the content can still be restored, but the problem remains the same. On Wikia, the content is 'locked', so to speak, by the people who run the Wiki.
The goals here by the Wiki moderators and the 405th staff are actually mutually esclusive, and I don't see the point in either party being at loggerheads over this situation. The 405th Staff could help the Wiki Staff with the content, and when/if the time comes the Wiki has to be moved, the two parties can work together to make the transition smooth.
Think of it as the Wiki in its current state being like a sandbox - a test-run before the 405th.com Wiki gets up and running. If all goes well, there should be a seamless integration, no?
I hope this post has gone some way to repairing the trouble caused in this thread.
Do I have to keep wandering through here, ducking past all the pacifiers being thrown around? Because I swear, sometimes I wonder if I'm not in a child's creche rather than a mature forum. I'm trying to be pleasant, calm and constructive here, and I'm half-wondering if I shouldn't call a conference on the Chat to try and resolve this all peacefully.
Please, one and all. Actually read one another's posts instead of leaping to conclusions and cocking your arm back for another throw.
Let's make this simple, OK? This entire topic should be as simple as an Easy-Bake oven.
I want to be a part of the 405th community. I really, really do - despite the obvious prejudices people have against me, and perhaps some of that I've earned, so let me set the record straight here, in the hopes that perhaps we can continue this discussion with a little less heat.
I have faith in the Staff here - I really do. despite what it might sound like, I do agree with the decisions the Staff take - most of the time. Sometimes I'm confused by their decisions, but that doesn't mean I think less of them. Yes, I have an attitude, which doesn't help me sometimes, but in reality, all I want to do is further this site and make it better.
But in this case, I have to disagree with the staff.
The Wiki, as it stands, is still a work in progress. Until everything is stabilised, I strongly advise against moving it - however, as someone that works on the content within the Wiki to a degree, I will assist in moving it if I am asked to.
The actual content is properly referenced and credited in either case - I see no reason to complain about credit, or lack thereof. Vrogy takes great pains to ask whether content can be hosted, and when possible, the work is referenced and credited.
Hosting the Wiki on Wikia is safer, for the reasons Vrogy outlined - trust or not, the content is better policed under Wikia regulations and is less likely to be tampered with irrepairably. Once the Wiki moves to 405th.com, those regulations and policing abilities are somewhat dumbed down, and the Wiki is essentially at the mercy of the Staff rather than the actual members of the site. That's not to say that the staff will instantly pounce all over the material and edit it to their own needs... but who's to say another Moderator might rise to power, become vindictive, and tamper with the content? Of course, the content can still be restored, but the problem remains the same. On Wikia, the content is 'locked', so to speak, by the people who run the Wiki.
The goals here by the Wiki moderators and the 405th staff are actually mutually esclusive, and I don't see the point in either party being at loggerheads over this situation. The 405th Staff could help the Wiki Staff with the content, and when/if the time comes the Wiki has to be moved, the two parties can work together to make the transition smooth.
Think of it as the Wiki in its current state being like a sandbox - a test-run before the 405th.com Wiki gets up and running. If all goes well, there should be a seamless integration, no?
I hope this post has gone some way to repairing the trouble caused in this thread.
Primal Weyland
Well-Known Member
That's true, Adam, and it's a valid point. As I said, I don't disagree with the Wiki being moved, if it comes to it. merely... I personally find the idea of the Wiki being hosted on Wikia much better, at least for the time being.
I hope I'm not being snotty in my opinion... I just believe it's for the best, at the moment.
I hope I'm not being snotty in my opinion... I just believe it's for the best, at the moment.
Walter Spase
Well-Known Member
To agree I understand what you're saying... but its a faith issue that we wont ruin the information for everyone. We wont. Have faith.
It's just too open ended a source for information outside the 405th. As seen what happened on Digg about the costuming, the public doesn't always view what we do as interesting... and in some cases people seek us out to ridicule... if we host the wiki on the 405th, then we have control over content... both as moderators, but also as a community.
But we need experienced help.
It's just too open ended a source for information outside the 405th. As seen what happened on Digg about the costuming, the public doesn't always view what we do as interesting... and in some cases people seek us out to ridicule... if we host the wiki on the 405th, then we have control over content... both as moderators, but also as a community.
But we need experienced help.
Primal Weyland
Well-Known Member
Experienced help?
Say no more.
My boyfriend (Kradorex M.Z. Xeron, of Digibase Operations) runs RProfiles, a Wiki dedicated to role-playing profiles for the RP community. If need be, I can get his assistance in the matter?
Say no more.
My boyfriend (Kradorex M.Z. Xeron, of Digibase Operations) runs RProfiles, a Wiki dedicated to role-playing profiles for the RP community. If need be, I can get his assistance in the matter?
bkearney said:
I wasn't talking literally about serial numbers or copyrights, I am talking about taking a community's info and rerelreasing it as I general community to serve all, seeing how that was the idea of the first community the data came from.
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bkearney
New Member
bkearney said:
Followup.. looked at the wikia.. and it is licensed under http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Text_of_the_GNU_...ntation_License. This does allow for commerical use which is good (hence the advertising on the wikia)
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Deadguy
Well-Known Member
DoC ByTeS said:
Sorry, I should have clarified that a bit better. I defined a public wiki, versus an internal private one.
A public wiki isn't controlled by anyone except outside sources who protect from data loss/vandalism, This means access is automatically granted to anyone who wants access to it.
An internal one is able to be more restricted, and accessed through the forums only, as members, to come into contact with the wiki.
Data on either, is considered to be owned by the person placing the information on there.
It might help to think of it as a different forum. This private one is "owned" there are mods and stuff, and we're all answerable to the owner of the site. The same restore abilites are availible, in case there's a "mod on a rampage". The world has POTENTIALLY restricted access to the forum, based on sign-up, and bans, etc.
A public wiki is similar, except that everyone is a mod, and some have admin privilidges to control the addition/protection of information, and behaviors of it's moderators. There's also some assistance availible to restore and block anything that goes wrong. The world has access to the wiki, unless they get banned.
In theory, if someone was banned from the 405th, they could make life difficult for us on the wiki under various ip iddresses.
In theory, if someone was banned from the 405th, they could make life difficult for us on the forums under various ip iddresses.
So.. the end result is that all that happens is that ownership of PUBLIC wiki posted material is not property of any other group aside from itself. no matter what the circumstances are. It's a public wikia, which answers to wiki.
Internal wikis are still part of the group that owns operates it... ie- the 405th.
Here's a quote from a public wiki posting agreement:
The purpose of this License is to make a manual, textbook, or other functional and useful document "free" in the sense of freedom: to assure everyone the effective freedom to copy and redistribute it, with or without modifying it, either commercially or noncommercially. Secondarily, this License preserves for the author and publisher a way to get credit for their work, while not being considered responsible for modifications made by others.
Ie- you can publish and sell anything found on that public wiki under that license.
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bkearney
New Member
DoC ByTeS said:
I understand your point, fragmenting the information could fragment the user base which de-vaules the community. I was just pointing out that the ownership of the content is (I believe) the prodiucers. Not the 405th. Subsent commentary on the content is vague as there are no terms that I could find. Wikia chooses GPL Doco or Creative Commons.
I still like the idea of 2 isources of information.
(1) Canonical Documentation.. in the wiki.
(2) Commentatry / Discussion... in the forums.
Many successful communities run this way (Fedora, Apache,. JBoss, etc)
-- bk
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Deadguy said:
Thank you for the clarification.
I was remarking that those that contributed did so to further there community (The 405th) and not to double it and possibly take away for the origin that the member (the owners of there info) started from or posted for.
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Spartan 051
Well-Known Member
like how every one missing what adam types. normally theres like 10 replays after anything he but on here he typed the same thing twice with no replays. Off topic just thought it was funny
Ok, so I've been looking over this thread for the last couple days(My eyes hurt a little from all the reading, ). Now that I think the issue has calmed somewhat, I'd like to throw some ideas out there.
Now as I understand it, the Wiki was originally created for ease of access to pep files, common information used in their creation, and then later seen as a way to centralize even more information in a more organized fashion as it's said that the current method of 'stickies' isn't quite working efficiently enough.
I don't think this is an issue of where the information needs to be stored and accessed, but more of how it should be stored and accessed.
I think everyone can agree that something needs done, correct? Well, what is that needs done? Perhaps we should figure that out before deciding on how to go about it.
"Clean up the stickies" you say. Ok, how? Should someone delete posts in the stickies that have no relative information. I think that would work and personally I see nothing wrong with it, but some would say, "That'll affect our post count!" I say that's ridiculous, but none the less has to be taken into consideration. So, how to better organize the information in the stickies while maintaining people's posts and information they believe relevant to the topic.
This had me thinking quite a bit, and then it hit me. Many different places I frequent actually use this method. You see it in the Weekly Updates at Bungie. I see it in news posts on media sites. Many, many places where comments are welcome on many different subjects.
Yes what I'm talking about are comment sections. You have an article on a news site. Most of the time you can post your comments on these articles on separate pages that are linked from the article.
Why not for each sticky have the an 'article' thread where any important information is shown, and then have a separate thread for discussion and random comments. The article thread would be locked to prevent unnecessary posting, which would belong in the discussion/comments thread anyway, and it would link to the discussion thread. The discussion thread would also be in turn linked to the article thread. Both threads would be labeled exactly the same except for the end of the title, or optional title, would have "-Main Article" in it for the article thread and "-Comments/Disscussion" for the comments thread.
The OPs and mod/staff members would work in tandem to maintain the article threads. When information in the discussion/comments is deemed important enough to include into the article thread, it is then moved or quoted there by the OP(w/assistance from a mod/staff) or by a mod/staff themselves.
It would take time to initially setup, and yes I do realize how much work that would be. Once it is setup though, it should be rather easy to maintain. Certain mods/staff could be assigned to look over particular stickies with one or two backup mods in case they are not present.
Remember, this is just one idea to help better our current situation. I think if we put our heads together, we can come up with more ideas to come to some conclusion that is beneficial for everyone.
). Now that I think the issue has calmed somewhat, I'd like to throw some ideas out there.Now as I understand it, the Wiki was originally created for ease of access to pep files, common information used in their creation, and then later seen as a way to centralize even more information in a more organized fashion as it's said that the current method of 'stickies' isn't quite working efficiently enough.
I don't think this is an issue of where the information needs to be stored and accessed, but more of how it should be stored and accessed.
I think everyone can agree that something needs done, correct? Well, what is that needs done? Perhaps we should figure that out before deciding on how to go about it.
"Clean up the stickies" you say. Ok, how? Should someone delete posts in the stickies that have no relative information. I think that would work and personally I see nothing wrong with it, but some would say, "That'll affect our post count!" I say that's ridiculous, but none the less has to be taken into consideration. So, how to better organize the information in the stickies while maintaining people's posts and information they believe relevant to the topic.
This had me thinking quite a bit, and then it hit me. Many different places I frequent actually use this method. You see it in the Weekly Updates at Bungie. I see it in news posts on media sites. Many, many places where comments are welcome on many different subjects.
Yes what I'm talking about are comment sections. You have an article on a news site. Most of the time you can post your comments on these articles on separate pages that are linked from the article.
Why not for each sticky have the an 'article' thread where any important information is shown, and then have a separate thread for discussion and random comments. The article thread would be locked to prevent unnecessary posting, which would belong in the discussion/comments thread anyway, and it would link to the discussion thread. The discussion thread would also be in turn linked to the article thread. Both threads would be labeled exactly the same except for the end of the title, or optional title, would have "-Main Article" in it for the article thread and "-Comments/Disscussion" for the comments thread.
The OPs and mod/staff members would work in tandem to maintain the article threads. When information in the discussion/comments is deemed important enough to include into the article thread, it is then moved or quoted there by the OP(w/assistance from a mod/staff) or by a mod/staff themselves.
It would take time to initially setup, and yes I do realize how much work that would be. Once it is setup though, it should be rather easy to maintain. Certain mods/staff could be assigned to look over particular stickies with one or two backup mods in case they are not present.
Remember, this is just one idea to help better our current situation. I think if we put our heads together, we can come up with more ideas to come to some conclusion that is beneficial for everyone.
Question for anyone who can answer...
Lets say the Wiki gets moved back to the 405th. A noob comes along and sees some stuff on the forums about bondo, and wants to figure out what this stuff is. That noobs then clicks on the search bar, and searches "bondo".
Will the search somewhere display the wiki, and its relevant tutorials?
As a 405th member, my two greatest concerns about this subject are as follows..
1) Where will the information be the EASIEST to access and find?
2) Will the hard working people who designated their time to create amazing pep files and models be properly recognized, and in control of their work?
Other than that, I personally think we all need to trust the mods. Adam could close down this entire site today if he wanted to, and everything would be lost. But we're all here for the same purpose, all here to better this community.
Lets say the Wiki gets moved back to the 405th. A noob comes along and sees some stuff on the forums about bondo, and wants to figure out what this stuff is. That noobs then clicks on the search bar, and searches "bondo".
Will the search somewhere display the wiki, and its relevant tutorials?
As a 405th member, my two greatest concerns about this subject are as follows..
1) Where will the information be the EASIEST to access and find?
2) Will the hard working people who designated their time to create amazing pep files and models be properly recognized, and in control of their work?
Other than that, I personally think we all need to trust the mods. Adam could close down this entire site today if he wanted to, and everything would be lost. But we're all here for the same purpose, all here to better this community.
Sean Bradley
Sr Member
I can't answer the search field question, but I'm glad to see that things have cooled off with this thread enough that we've all had a chance to think about it. Although this debate definately got a little heated, I still think that this has been a productive and worthwhile discussion.
To attempt to draw some conclusion to this subject I will comb through everything here and pull the suggested fixes to the sticky/wiki issue and create a voting thread so that we can get some accurate polling of what everyone thinks should be done to fix the problem.
To attempt to draw some conclusion to this subject I will comb through everything here and pull the suggested fixes to the sticky/wiki issue and create a voting thread so that we can get some accurate polling of what everyone thinks should be done to fix the problem.
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