Duke's 3D print Halo Props (What to expect from 3D)

Discussion in 'Halo Props' started by PerniciousDuke, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. PerniciousDuke

    PerniciousDuke RXO 405th Regiment Officer

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    I had these made a while ago, but I wanted to do the first post justice so I have held off. (*disclaimer* I am not the printer or the modeler, I am just assembling)

    I wanted to show members what they should expect from 3d printed props. I've seen threads on here of people who spent a lot of money on a 3d prop only to find they needed to sand and glue and tweak it. Some work is needed to finish a 3d prop, but you shouldn't have to bondo the whole thing like I have seen before.

    This is what the level of detail should look like:
    20160802_181022_zpsds9wbyea.jpg
    More on this prop to come.


    First up I got a "failed print" to play with. Something the printer thought didn't deserve to be completed, but since I was new to the medium he thought that I would like something to practice on. And I did! First thing that I had to learn was how to glue the pieces together. You want something strong enough to not break from a short fall which means it needs to be semi flexible.
    20160802_102252_zpscikam0jg.jpg
    I used interior/exterior construction adhesive from a reputable brand. I provide a picture lower in this post.

    Then I had to sand the glue seam down. For this you want to be sure that your glue is labeled as sandable. I used 100 grit and finished with 180 grit. A knife may be useful as well.
    20160802_102208_zpsvb2aphob.jpg
    You can see in this picture visible lines in the print. This is what I would assume resulted in the failed print. It looks as if the piece shifted during printing. The line of plastic is indented on one side and protruding on the other. Since this test piece was free I wanted to see if I could revive it. I was able to get it pretty good looking just from sanding. Again pretty high grits. I think that if I were to do it again I would sand after the first coat of primer hoping that the primer is a little easier to sand. Regardless, I now have a magnum and I am still undecided as how I'd like to paint it.


    Now for the real deal, the piece that I requested was the Halo Reach M45 Tactical Shotgun and I am very pleased with the result. Mine was the first print of the file so it does have some flaws, but definitely not enough to take away from it's beauty.
    Here is how it came to me and the glue I will be using to connect the pieces (purchased separately).
    20160802_180941_zpsbrfax99h.jpg
    The pump action slide was made separate so the I can attempt to create the pump action. Still not positive how I will do that.
    When requesting a 3d print you should ask if they can include a peg and hole (in woodworking a "plug") system to help align and sturdy the glue joints.

    I love the detail in this print!! Some spots extra plastic gets left behind and in some spots the support pieces are still there. You should not be "de-shelling" the piece, but some work to remove this stuff should be expected. Here's an example, this hard to reach support in the middle of the gun was still there. I took a screw driver and a knife and knocked it out easy.
    20160802_181108_zpsppo5ds9q.jpg

    Here's an example of where the plastic left behind some build up in between the "teeth" on top of the barrel.
    20160803_181654_zpsya4blyys.jpg

    With a few minutes and a sturdy all-purpose file I was able to get them pretty clean.
    20160803_185136_zpszfli9xbf.jpg

    The bottom of the stock and the back of the grip came in pretty rough so I will need to bondo these sides.
    20160806_084259_001_zpslzbmn7p4.jpg

    I was told that it took about 2-1/2 spools of PLA to print this and for an average PLA spool you shouldn't pay more than $25. So $75 for materials and I would assume a good starting point would be to double that for the printer's time. I would expect this piece to go for $150 plus shipping, at least that is what I would be willing to pay for it, maybe less because it is a first print. Thanks to the kaween initiated PrintPool I was able to get it for less than that. I've also been told that the model has improved since then including the peg and hole system for assembly. Also that the preferred plastic has switched to ABS+ due on both price and quality of print. I hope that someone in the US might help set up a PrintPool over here because it seems like a very cool idea both for creators to learn and costumers to costume.

    I was even able to get some personalization!
    TAGGEd.jpg
    grip right.jpg

    Along with a couple other things including a grenade prop and a Reach knife. I was able to use the orbital sander on the reach blade finishing with 220 grit and I love how it smoothed up.
    20160806_095513_zpskhzywnoj.jpg


    Overall I am very happy with how these props came out and I hope I was able to help others see what a good 3D print looks like. I'm also hoping that by posting this it will help get me to complete them with the shotgun slide and a little paint.
    Here are some extra pictures.
    IMG_20160702_192225.jpg
    20160806_084356_zpsi4ot2dcn.jpg
    20160803_200434_zps3m3j0jjf.jpg
     

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    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
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  2. TutlarAce06

    TutlarAce06 Member

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    Do you have a printer you would recommend for under $500? Also, would you buy a used 3d printer or is that just a bad idea?
     
  3. peterthethinker

    peterthethinker Well-Known Member

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    Thank you!

    I see * everywhere* people assuming when they see a 3Dp as a title that they are gonna get a flawless print.... Pics and specs are worth everything.


    what was the layer hight.
    what was the infill.
    how thick are the walls.
    and PLA ABS or other .



    ABS can be glassed smooth with a wet rag of acetone .. PLA cant be chem smoothed . only sanded and Filled with other materials

    both Need a good wall to be stable and Infill where needed to be strong .
    as you cant cheat with PLA like you can with ABS * acetone* Insist on fine layer hight on PLA.
    With ABS 200-300 Micron is fine
    IMO I want 100-50 or less on PLA to have a no sand qualty.
    a print with 2 perms and no infill is a display prop and is NOT worth buying unless its been filled with resen or been glassed on the inside Ect.
     
  4. Dirtdives

    Dirtdives Sr Member

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    I'm glad you held off because this is FANTASTIC!!!! I love the personalization in the grip. Makes me want to go out and get a 3D printer........
     
  5. PerniciousDuke

    PerniciousDuke RXO 405th Regiment Officer

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    I didn't actually print this so I would not be able to give you recommendations. I am sure someone will respond to your question though and I am sure there are other threads where recommended printers have been discussed. But, trust me, it gets very technical very fast. This help thread may be a good place to start.


    You're welcome! :) I was aware of that frustration among printers which is why I wanted to do this post. That being said, this post is directed towards end users who do not understand the technical side so I don't want this thread to become too difficult to read. However, I will get the answers to your questions soon and I will make another post and mention you. I did mention it is PLA, but the printer (kaween) has switched to using ABS+ for future prints. Like I said though, I will make another post later to respond to the rest of your questions. Thanks for the comments!

    I'm glad you approve! Yes, it was pretty exciting. I can't even tell you how much fun it was to get photo updates every few days the detail was way higher than I ever expected. I'd like to get a 3d printer too, but to do it well there is a LOT to learn. I don't think I'm quite ready for that yet.
     
  6. Chernobyl

    Chernobyl Sr Member

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    Pretty swish work! I'll be having peterthethinker reference this build in his 3D Print Help thread, but I'd also like to ask if you'd consider providing a more comprehensive album of images for the clean-up process on this build and turning it into a downloadable tutorial to be hosted in our Tutorials section of the Archive.

    Again, fine work, very well-made and it looks like that shotgun is going to look like the real deal once you've given it some TLC.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2017
  7. Thugzz Deluxxxe

    Thugzz Deluxxxe Member

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    Awesome thread, Duke. I wish more people would talk about this kind of stuff. I feel like a lot of people can have unrealistic expectations of 3D printed props and 3D printing in general. 3D printed props can be a slippery slope. One of the many misconceptions about 3D printing is that the piece is ready for paint the second it comes off the bed. That's simply not the case, unless you're willing to pay an exorbitant amount of money for like a high-end Stratasys print. There are so many variables when it comes to buying or commissioning 3D printed pieces. If you're getting a raw print from someone, as Duke said, it should be relatively inexpensive. However, it's the artist's prerogative to charge how they want. Sometimes you're simply paying for the 3D printing service alone, but in some cases, there can be unforeseen costs. Below are just some examples of common practices that can raise or lower the price.

    -The cost may include the 3D model itself (if the person printing it modeled it as well)
    -The quality of the 3D printer (a print from an ObJet is going to cost more than a print from a MakerBot)
    -Extra services (OP seems to have gotten a raw print, but some artists/printers offer finishing and even painting services which obviously raise the price)
    -Is the 3D print in question a Master for a mold? (My roommate often sells her masters for much cheaper than a one-off print, even though more work has been put into sanding and finishing it. That cost can be eaten due to the much higher return that will come from selling resin kits.)
    -A printer may have more than one 3D printer. (My roommate and I have two printers in our apartment, which allows us to be a bit more expedient in the files we print. That helps lower the "labor/time" cost.)
    -Wasted material and messed up prints. (A lot of artists [myself included] often offset costs of messed up prints and subsequently wasted filament in our pricing. People may argue that messed up prints are on the artist, but as someone who has run and serviced 3D printers for a large company, trust me when I say "messed up prints are inevitable" and when you're trying to run a business, those costs need to be taken into consideration.)
    -What kind of material are they printing in? (Duke pointed out that his print was in PLA but the printer switched to ABS after the fact. These are easily the most common filaments, but with resin printers becoming more affordable, the introduction of a new material into the market will absolutely vary the pricing.)
    -

    I totally agree with everything OP said, I hope this post doesn't seem argumentative, I'm just adding my experience as a 3D printer. I've begun to see an unfortunate trend in the cosplay community where a lot of people view 3D printing as a shortcut or something akin to cheating, but a lot of work goes into 3D printing. So just remember, if someone's price seems a little too high, just keep in mind there are a lot of things to take into account when pricing a print.
     
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  8. PerniciousDuke

    PerniciousDuke RXO 405th Regiment Officer

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    I would be honored. I don't think I would be able to do it alone since I am not very tech savvy when it comes to 3d printing and I don't want to misinform anyone. But, I will try to get the knowledge I'd need and will get back to you. It would also be good to know if someone would be willing to proof read it before I submit. At the very least, thank you.

    Your contributions are welcome and encouraged. I did want to point out that I am not an expert on 3d printing and don't claim to be. However, I am an expert on how I spend my money and it is based on what the item is worth to me. So the numbers I threw out there were based slightly on reality, but mostly on what I would feel comfortable spending on something like this. So while there are lots of factors to what creates the cost of a 3d print, it really boils down to the age old idea, what is it worth to the person buying it.

    This is something that I would like to explore. To create a list of things like you did focused on what the buyer should be looking for and asking for to make sure that what they are paying matches what they are getting. There are people who expect a lot more than they should from a 3d print, but there are also printers out there passing off poor quality and saying its just the way it is. It would be nice to provide a buyers guide to help put some perspective on what seems like a new unregulated industry.
     
  9. kaween

    kaween Member

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    Hi Guys, "the printer" here. :D


    I'm happy Duke did this thread. I'd been planning to do this one myself for a long time, but life&such always came between "the wish and the do". But Duke did a fantastic job, he did a better job than I ever could.

    I bow my head, Duke ! Thank you for doing this ! High time somebody did.

    Also, I don't like writing about stuff I do.
    Never have.
    It's not that I want to keep stuff for myself, it's more because I think the stuff I do isn't special at all, and I'm convinced a lot of people can do WAY better than me.
    But I'm trying to better my ways. Slowly. :D
    I'm working on a couple of new thingies which, in time, will become available for everyone on 405th, but as long as they're not ready only a few people know about what's in store. :)
    Lets just say that if 2017 goes as planned, it will be an interesting year for 405th-related 3D stuff. :D

    As for the technical part of this thingy : this is one of my very first prints so technical details are a bit fuzzy atm. But those days, I printed larger parts like this at 0.20 layer, 20% infill. I always use a 3-shell wall, with a 4 shell wall on bottom and top parts. The used PLA is "Real", a "white brand" over here which originates from "RepRapworld". It was printed at 210°C and 50mm/sec, which are my standard values.
    The software used on this is Simplify3D, which I have a love/hate relationship with. I love the fact it offers a good and flexible support system (print material support i mean), I love the fact it gives you a lot more of direct control over the printprocess than say Cura, but I totally hate their licence model (certainly if you have more than one machine to work on), and I hate they are VERY slow in addressing issues with their software.

    But I either use S3D or Cura for 99% of my printjobs.

    The used machine is a Kossel Pro-clone which I build myself, the second machine I ever build.

    The IDEA of this print originally was to show you do NOT have to spend hunderds or even thousands of dollars for a decent machine : fully build this little baby costs just over 300USD.
    It has a 220x281mm buildspace, a heated bed, a probe-system autolevel bed measurement system (which you really only use once or twice : as Delta's have a non-moving build plate, normally the values of the callibration don't change overnight. (I mean, yeah they will run a bit over time due to mechanical stress ect, but it's not like you'd be doing a level test at each new part).

    The model was taken from .... I should lie now. It was picked up by me on a 3Dmax forum, and it wasn't in a 3D printable format at that time. When Duke asked me if a M45 would be possible, I took this free model and tried to convert it into a workable, printable model. Well, the result you can see here. :D

    Out of respect for the original author, I'll look up the guy's name and add it here. This is really a very smooth, nicely done model and my son already insisted "he wants one too". :D

    But yes, a well callibrated, self build 3D machine worth 300USD can produce this kind of result, even at a fairly rough layerheigth of 0.2mm. Considering this print outguns (haha) prints I've seen been done on machines costing 10x as much, it again proves it's not "just the machine". It's how you treat it and how long you are prepared to tinker on it till it gives you just the result you had hoped for.

    As Duke said : back then, I was at the beginning of a huge learning curve and all the prints we do now at printpool have that easy "peg and hole" assembly system.
    But back in those days ? I still was figuring out how this stuff works and I was already over the moon with this result.

    Also, I wanted to feature this model to show that, if a 300USD self build machine can do THIS, there's NO reason to be content with paying like 200USD for a so-called professionally printed part, which doesn't come close to this kind of output. Very simple : DO NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING WORSE. It's your good money, you're WORTH the printers' extra effort to produce DECENT quality for your hard earned money.

    As for Thugzz Deluxxxe and Peters' remakrs and sentiments, I totaly agree. It's not a straight cut argument. Also, 3D is still years away from the "instant gratification press 'print' and be done with it" level of normal consumer products.

    BUT, it still is worth bringing up.

    The price point is flexible thing. But when I look at Etsy, a lot of sellers sell "raw prints". No sanding, no smoothing. DIY ect ect. And they sometimes ask up to 200USD for a -essentially free for all- model which anyone can pick up at Myminifactory, Thingiverse or whatever. And I, personally, have issues with that. When I see how some of these models look like -some of them are so bad I would NEVER even CONSIDER them to sell to a "customer" - look at the M6G : to me that's a failed print and not sellable - I can only conclude not every creator out there thinks his/her customer is worth the extra effort.

    I've got 5 3D machines at home atm. As a hobby of building these things, it went a bit out of control. I also got 2 as "debug/support" deal, where I assembled, debugged, tested and wrote the manuals in return of a free machine. Some of these chinese people are really very, very reasonable. :D

    For me it's simple : a model should always be as CLEAN AS POSSIBLE from the printbed. Always ask yourself "would I accept this for my own" ? If not ? Toss it. Redo. Don't be content with mediocre results, because in that case, you will never improve your skills. As this is true for every form of crafting, it again shows 3D printing isn't that much different from other ways of doing cosplay stuff, at least not in terms of attitude.

    So yes, this print is a wake-up call : the creators should always try to -even when they're RAW prints- create them as CLEAN as possible. Sure, EVERY raw model will ask extra attention. But you have "extra attention" and "waste of ABS/PLA". If an output has printlines all over the surface, and that surface has intricate small detailing, you KNOW you won't be able to sand that out without loosing a ton of details.
    And selling stuff like that premium price ? I wonder how people live with themselves. I consider this fraud. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And to counter this, we started PrintPool in Europe. Again, there's a ****load more active US-405th'ers who're into 3D printing than we are at the European side. Get your heads together, do something for your fellow 405th. Improve your friends' suit quality. For you, the printer, it's "just machine time". For you friend, it's heaven sent if he/she would want something like that but can't afford to do this using the normal commercial channels.

    YOU will learn from the work, and your 405th friend will be thankful for the fruits of your labor ! I'm not saying "everyone should go 3D". For heavens' sake no.

    THE main point why I joined 405th was because no 2 armors/sets/works look the same. They all reflect the skill, the talent, the attitude, the personality of their creators.
    With all due respect to those fabulous people of 501th and their brilliant work : I chose to be THE Spartan. Not A StormTrooper. :)

    As for the "3D is cheating" feeling. Oh, totally. I recognize this all too well. Again, the start of PrintPool was born in that spirit.

    I'm pretty much convinced a PART of this envy comes from the lack of availability for a lot of our members. 3D printing has fallen in prices considerably, but it's a matter of fact : not everyone has 300USD or more readily available for their hobby "just to create cosplay parts". (well, not just, but you understand my drift).
    Not EVERYONE like the idea of tinkering at a cheap chinese kit for weeks to get it to do what they hoped for.
    A lot of people think it's beyond them to even assemble such a thing.

    I tell everybody the same thing : if you can hold a screwdriver without poking your eye out ? Than YOU can create one of these things too !

    As for the "cheating" : I personally would feel the same way if I had to work manually on a piece for days, only to see someone creating a part in a couple of days which I, at my current skill level, could NOT reproduce in foam. But honestly : where do you draw the line ? Because if 3D printing is "cheating", how is buying a ready-made cast of a model different ? It's not.
    3D printing is not cheating. It's a totally different way of working, certainly if you yourself do the printjob. You will hone a totally different skillset than say, using pep. But you WILL hone a skillset. You WILL learn and improve on yourself. And THAT is worth a lot. Honest, it was this that made me switch to 3D in the first place.

    But everyone has their own opinion and their own viewpoint on this subject, and I respect that. But the worst thing you can do as a "non-3D users" is thinking 3D printing takes the same kind skill level as printing something on paper. It's simply not true. Even the so-called "fool proof easy instant print things" (DaVinci's ect ect) will ask you to LEARN about the process, to EXPERIMENT. To FAIL. To OBSERVE. To SEEK. And the succeed in the end.

    That being said, to bridge that gap between "have and have nots" and to even the playing field, PrintPool was created. You don't HAVE to use 3D. But everyone should at least have an honest CHANCE to do so if they want.




    And Peter : actually PLA _can_ be chemically smoothed.

    NOT as easy as ABS which just needs acetone (for anyone interested : acetone is a nasty product people, do not underestimate the health dangers and potential fire hazards when doing Acetone smoothing or vaporing : if you want to do it : READ UP AND DO TAKE ALL THE WARNINGS DEADLY SERIOUS), but it can be done. For "real" PLA, ethyl acetate does provide a smoothing alternative more or less comparable to what acetone does for ABS. It does NOT act as fast nor as aggressive as the ABS+acetone combo, but it does have a similar, "layer melting" effect. I've tried it, it works. But depening on the country you live in, the stuff can be hard to get by at a reasonable price, and the effect of it varries from PLA brand/batch even to PLA.

    Some PLA's aren't even "true PLA" but an "inbetween". Colorfab for example sells PLA which can be acetone smoothed ! (and afaik, they're also the only ones). NOT as easy as ABS, but it does work, but it should be labelled PHA and not PLA in reality.

    ABS+ is a different kettle of fish. Because there's no fixed definition of what ABS+ really has to consist of, I've had ABS+ which was virtually impervious to Acetone (Trideus ABS+), while others work about as good as normal ABS does (eSun). Warning : don't try to use this as base for ABS-glue/slurry/whatever. It doesn't disolve completly : it's clear the "non abs particles" which are used to mix up the stuff to create ABS+ is not disolvable in Acetone.

    Again, I thank Duke for his excellent write-up, and the TLC he has given this model which I think it deserved.
    And please forgive my shameless input : this is YOUR thread Duke, and YOUR gun. I just "happened to be the maker". But YOU will have to bring it to life. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2017
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  10. PerniciousDuke

    PerniciousDuke RXO 405th Regiment Officer

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    I thought I said easy to read! Lol. I'm just messing. Your input is much appreciated. And I am sure I will be coming back to ask you more questions if I do try to type up something more about this. And hopefully peterthethinker can find the answers he was looking for in your post above.

    I like that you explained this was built on a home made machine for under $500. Not to say that it is easy, but it is doable. It would be nice if we could eventually point people towards how to print at home affordably and test if it truly is as easy as holding a screw driver, and not the fact that you are a careered electrical engineer. :p

    But, my post was more as a "buyer beware" piece. I didn't say it earlier because I didn't want to offend you, but since you said it I will repeat, "Do not accept anything worse than this" My gun was printed by someone who was still learning, printed on a home made machine, with no test prints and this is the result. If you paid full price and did not receive quality like this then you need to ask for your money back or review the seller appropriately.

    As for your and Thugzz' comments about how people view 3d printing, I too hope that will change. No matter how a person creates something, they still created it. It wasn't there before (or it was and it existed in a different way) and then they took it and made it theirs. That is why we are all here, to make cool stuff ours. No reason to divide. And all the more reason to work together. I could hone my pep skill for years and still never produce the result in a weapon like this.

    I hope that the idea of the PrintPool starts to make sense to people and I hope it can eventually reach the States. Thank you kaween! I am happy you think my post did your piece and efforts justice.
     
  11. peterthethinker

    peterthethinker Well-Known Member

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    I dont recall asking for anything ?
     
  12. PerniciousDuke

    PerniciousDuke RXO 405th Regiment Officer

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    Seemed like questions to me. ;)
     
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  13. ajmadison

    ajmadison New Member

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    Any printer under $500 would either be a kit, which will require assembly (obviously) and set-up/configuration. Some of printers can be painful to get "leveled out" and the extruder 'zero'd in' in their setup. There's a picture making the rounds, showing a magnified section of a 3d printer adjustment screw showing only two threads, next to it, cross sections of a human hair, a grain of salt, and an extruded segment of filament. Guess which one is the smallest. I am only saying that a kit printer will require your full attention before even getting to print anything on it. Any ready to go machine under $500 will have a tough time printing parts big enough that can be assembled into anything life size.

    As for a used machine, if it comes to you sight unseen, and you don't have the previous owner available to brief you on running it, you're probably in the same situation as assembling a kit. Any malfunction or foible will be time consuming in diagnosing and solving. And may involve replacement parts. I have access to the full internet community behind my printer, and run into issues that takes pouring through pages and pages of forum postings to piece together what's going on and what to do about it. Really depends on how you want to spend your time. Plenty of folks have not just built a kit printer, but one from scratch, and go on to produce very nice printings. I went into getting a 3d printer pretty sure 3d printing would become my main hobby, not any of the subject matter I wanted to produce from it, and that has become the case.
     
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  14. peterthethinker

    peterthethinker Well-Known Member

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    Oh Noo.
    it was more of a statement to ask When a person buys a print to ask the printer. Not Reallty from me.
    3 spools for a shotgun smells good too! . If some one milked a full scale AR from one KG spool I would be worried
     
  15. PerniciousDuke

    PerniciousDuke RXO 405th Regiment Officer

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    Ah, gotcha. Duly noted. If I do write up more on this subject (a tutorial on buying/cleaning prints) I was planning to include things to look for, like appropriate answers to the questions you posed. We can use this thread as a brainstorming for things of that nature, things that buyers should be aware of. Your thoughts would be welcome. Thanks Peter!
     
  16. peterthethinker

    peterthethinker Well-Known Member

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    No problem ! . Nice prints can hide nasty things inside and that awareness is a price point.

    This is why I ask prior to making a prop how strrong they want it . Not feasable for a pre made print but for a commision its a snap !

    and a selling point! . high infills and thick walls are to some worth 20% more for a prop.
     
  17. CommanderPalmer

    CommanderPalmer Well-Known Member

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    Beautiful prints, kaween. I Having Magnums and Assault Rifle printed by you, I can confirm you deliver the best.

    Also, PerniciousDuke - great thread and I'm very happy you made it., so people should know what to expect and how a good print should look like.

    To be honest I'm quite surprised that Magnum was a 'failed' print. I thought it looks awesome, haha. I'd totally consider it beautiful and would use it. XD

    But really a nice thread, Duke.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2017
  18. kaween

    kaween Member

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    There's quite a bit which I can't possibly relate to nor agree to there.

    First, if someone asks me to do a print, I will automatically assume it's meant to be as strong as the part is logically expected to be. Meaning, it can withstand normal use and occasional mishaps, in function of what type the printjob would have been. People, I've noticed tend to be very clear about that : it's either a prop for a con, it's a functional one, it's a static one, it's a display-only one. Or it's a mechanical replacement part.
    At that point, I don't need to _ask_ how strong they want it. I already _know_ what they would logically expect within those parameters as I can simply put myself into their shoes, and I'll know what I would expect if things would be reversed and I would be the "customer". There's no reason to offer a sub-standard part as a starting point, only to offer "a stronger version" as "option".
    This may be common in the normal industry, I'd like to think we're better than that.

    People who ask 3D prints have generally no clue what infill, shell thicknes and whatever REALLY means.
    It's US who have to think about that. Not doing so is simply shifting the responsibility of the print when things would go wrong. (Free Replacement !)

    But more importantly, at current prices and with the type of margins being used, it shouldn't be an issue from the start !

    Here's an example :

    helmet (Medium).jpg

    This is the downright wonderful free-to-use ODST helmet, created by Jeffery Tabben -who also happens to be the CO of the European Regiment- and which has been offered to the community to be used for free. (Thank you Jeff !). I could have taken one of the marvelous helmet from Kristian (Carterbuilder12) too, but this is just one I'm currently experimenting with.

    Anyhow.

    If you look at JUST the Helmet (no support or whatever), the cost to build this thing with 10% infill, ,15 layer height, 3 outer shells, 5 top shells and 3 bottom shell would be 803 grams of ABS
    Doing that same helmet in 40% infill with solid layers every 100 layers, would cost 1100 grams of ABS.

    The difference in strength between these 2 setups is dramatical. You know that. I know that. You also know the price difference of 300 grams of ABS is INSIGNIFICANT compared to the full price of most jobs.
    We are talking about 4USD on this helmet. Max. And the difference is a helmet that can snap when it first falls to the ground, or a helmet that's likely to put a dent in a plastered wall if you throw it at it. (and yes, I tried it. Like nearly everything I comment on, I rarely comment on something without having hands-on experiences with it personally, and then I will still present it as opinion, not fact)
    Don't tell me if someboy would ask you do this helmet full sized, those 4USD would represent a 20% price difference. :)

    Especially if people start boasting about how cheap they were able to find their latest batch of filament for (which seems to be a real thing amongst builders, and it saddens me no end : it's good to keep your friends _informed_ about price opportunities, but just stating a price doesn't say anything about the mechanical capabilities or the printquality of said filaments : there's huge differences there, even within the same brand or even production batch sometimes), it is clear that in reality, this is a non-issue. It may be a _commercial_ issue, but no technical one for this example.

    It COULD be a technical question if said part would have, say, weight restraints because it's made for a quadcopter where very gram counts. But in _normal_ conditions, it's just not an issue.

    So no, I feel the start point of a printjob would have to be that a print must be able to withstand normal use and even slight abuse in function of what type of job it was.

    No need to put the responsibility for this on the customer. If you have reasons to doubt the models' viability, than that's your own responisbility and you should act accordingly if things go wrong. (again : free replacement)
    You as a printer know full well what kind of expectations a customer has when he orders a prop one day, a mechanical replacement part the other day or a display-only-model the next.

    And while a "nice print may hide ugly things inside" at times is a true statement, an equally true statement is that "an ugly print by nature will ALWAYS hide ugly things inside". :D
     
    KRI667 and CommanderPalmer like this.
  19. PerniciousDuke

    PerniciousDuke RXO 405th Regiment Officer

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    That's a good point. The person printing the part should know what level quality is to be expected. Instead of asking what technical specifics the buyer wants, they should be what the buyer will be using it for. And I do agree that people shouldn't offer sub-par prints for price points, especially if we're talking 1-2 hour difference or $10 more of plastic.

    But, we can't ignore the fact that not all salesmen are that nice. So to Peter's credit, the buyer should know in part what some of these terms like infill mean and what to ask for, otherwise they are allowing themselves to be lied to. As he pointed out, it can look fine on the outside, but not be very strong on the inside. Since that possibility exists we have to take precautions not to be duped.
     
    kaween likes this.
  20. kaween

    kaween Member

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    Agreed.
    Peter _offering_ this service already far exceeds what the biggest part of the so-called professional sellers will do,
    I fully realize that and by no means it was meant as critisism towards Peter.

    I just wanted to illustrate by practical example that, in light of the very limited extra cost on a total job, it never should be an issue unless the type of build represents a technical situation where strength and weight ask for a compromise.

    Also, I have no problems admitting I would have created that M45 of yours (for example) totally differently today then I had done back in those days. Hence why I say : I will offer a life-time warranty on EVERY printjob I do in terms of unacceptable premature failure that wasn't caused by deliberate misuse or "act by God". That's how much I will stand behind "my product". The fact I don't earn a penny on those things doesn't mean I don't have to make sure people get the best quality possible.

    While this may be a somewhat "unique salespitch" to some, I fully stand behind it and I hope that in time, this will force others to follow suit.
     
  21. mblackwell1002

    mblackwell1002 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, yeah Kris

    you are most likely going to be everyone's go-to guy.
    the prices and quality of your prints are unbeatable...
    Hope lots of people follow with your 'sales method'
    it Definitely could save us a lot of money.


    BTW: I tried your print method and learned that your method turns out really nice (used PLA instead though)

    I also learned that I may need to recalibrate my machine soon.
    it seems I've learned a lot of things today.:D
     
    kaween likes this.
  22. kaween

    kaween Member

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    You give me faaaar too much credit.
    The only reason I know a couple of small things is because I've build all-but-one of my machines myself. And, and this is probably the most important part, I'm not afraid to toss print attempts as "failed" if they do not please me, be it structural or in terms of quality. The only way to get ahead is not to be content with what you have now, but saying "I can do THAT" whenever I see a printquality that is out-of-my-reach.

    Self critisism is the key. Finding someone who's willing to share info is the next step. With the first thing, I can't help. With the second one ? I'll never withhold info, neither will I advise you to do things which I haven't tried and tested myself.

    If you are THINKING you need to recallibrate, you can be SURE you must. :D What kind of machine do you have ? Certainly Delta's can be realy ugly to callibrate, but there are a couple of really brilliant tools out there which can put you on the correct track in no time. Callibrating Cartesians is a lot more straightforward, certainly the single extruder ones.
     
  23. mblackwell1002

    mblackwell1002 Well-Known Member

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    I've got a flashforge creator pro chassis. let me know of easy tools! :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  24. kaween

    kaween Member

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    Euh ? Is it a Flashforge CREATOR pro (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1386816) or a Makerbot REPLICATOR machine ? :D
    I'm not really into Flashforge in terms of knowledge. Far too rich for me. Not enough to do for my tinkering hands. :D :D :D
     
    mblackwell1002 likes this.
  25. mblackwell1002

    mblackwell1002 Well-Known Member

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    Heh, sorry. It IS the flashforge CREATOR Pro.
    My First and only machine.

    I want another, that I can build;)(I'm the same way in terms of building stuff:D) But it may not happen for awhile
    any recommendations of kits?
     

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