Hey FOAMERS, I need some help! What am I doing wrong?

[Revenant1988]

I wanted to post this in the noob forum but it won't let me....

Anyway, like most I've been watching all of these really sweet foam armor build go though the forums, some looking just as good or BETTER than the classic Fiberglass builds.

On my first and most recent suit, everything is 100% fiberglass except for the boots. The boots I just free handed and didn't do bad on my second attempt.

Now, I want to re-do my Mk V before Halo 4 arrives and I decided to give the foam route a try. So, I gave it a shot for real using the pep templates and I gotta say, this IS NOT as easy as everyone makes it look

Here is a shot of a shoulder piece I did, I used the templates to get the foam shapes and then I put the pep together (I just folded the tabs rather than cut them off since I still wanted to use the paper)

Now, it took me a long time to put the foam piece together. WAY longer than I thought it would.

You'll see that compared to each other, the foam one looks kinda pathetic imo. Before anyone says anything, the seams are actually really close, you may think there are large gaps but that's because of the black sharpie I used... it makes the lines a little too bold haha.

I studied a lot on getting the seams close, so that didn't bother me.

The over all shape doesn't look right, and I'm not sure what I did wrong. I did make sure to cut behind the piece on the major bends, but the lines where it needs to be sharp and creased aren't and I don't know how to get them sharp. In the picture below, you can kind of get an idea of what I mean

The front trapezoid area is sharp with the paper, but more rounded on the foam. I DID cut lines on the inside seam to bend it easier but it still doesn't look right. That piece is also one large foam piece.

Should I be working in smaller pieces with the foam?

Should I be cutting the pieces everywhere there is a line?

On paper, you can just fold to get the shape, but the foam is too thick for that: how do I achieve a similar look?

Should I be using every piece from the pep template when I foam a piece? Or are there certain pieces I should just skip?

Do I just have to accept that on certain areas it won't look like the pep or can I remedy the problem?

Last question: to those who have foamed AND glassed, do any of you prefer glass over foam for more than just the helmet? I like that the foam pieces are light, but they feel...........too light. I find myself liking the weight and feel of fiberglass more, but I'm trying to keep an open mind for both methods.

This is harder than I thought!!

 

[misfitjh]

Well it does look very good for a foam build, you did a good job with it. Now that said you are going to lose detail with a foam build, it's just the nature of the foam. You can cut those areas into separate peaces to give you the sharper edge or you could do what LilTyrant is doing and cover the outside in thin foamie sheets and give yourself the detail you want that way.[URL="http://www.405th.com/member.php/73340-LilTyrant"]
[/URL]

 

[LilTyrant]

For your first shot at foam, I'd say that looks quite nice!

But, to hopefully kind of answer some of your questions:

> For the inside of the seam you said you cut lines for it to bend easier, but in order to achieve a sharper edge you need to either: 1) cut out a larger wedge section on the inside of the seam instead of just cutting lines or 2) use separate segments of foam. If you go with option 2, you'll want to be sure to bevel the mating edges of the foam to account for the thickness of the material. Options 1 and 2 should help you achieve a similar look to the folded paper shape, with a much crisper edge.

> I personally prefer to create custom templates instead of using pep files, so I can't totally answer your pep to foam template questions...but I would suspect that since the foam already has thickness you can skip any pep pieces that are intended to create a wall-thickness.

drack has some great tutorials on foam, so I'd definitely recommend checking them out for some tips: http://www.405th.com/showthread.php/37261-Foam-Technique-Tutorials

And as misfitjh mentioned, craft foam is quite helpful as well!

I hope that at least helps a little!

 

[Spacemeat]

When it comes to adapting the pepakura to foam, you don't need to follow the pattern precisely, and you can throw out some minor pieces.

You can actually use the thickness of the foam to save yourself some work on recessed areas and edges. Looking at that upper piece, I can see you bent the edges of the foam inwards; You could actually just cut the foam right there and the thickness of the foam will act as that face.

As to sharper edges, I tend to just use separate segments of foam and glue them together, you can look through my foam builds to get the idea.

 

[RoxyRoo]

I agree with everyone else. Mostly though, be patient. Although you have to work quick when hot-glueing the pieces together, the pre-planning, stenciling, cutting, sanding and pre-fitting pieces together is 90% of foaming. Working with foam is seriously making a giant puzzle. Think about how to put the pieces together before doing them. Work in layers (craft foam helps!).

And, as with any method of crafting, practice makes better.

 

[Revenant1988]

Well it does look very good for a foam build, you did a good job with it. Now that said you are going to lose detail with a foam build, it's just the nature of the foam. You can cut those areas into separate peaces to give you the sharper edge or you could do what LilTyrant is doing and cover the outside in thin foamie sheets and give yourself the detail you want that way.[URL="http://www.405th.com/member.php/73340-LilTyrant"]
[/URL]

In my last build I used foamies as a buffer to keep my thighs from banging together when I walk, and they also look great for detailing areas that I would have to spend hours on with painting. I'll keep the in mind on my next attempt instead of using the EVA everywhere.

For your first shot at foam, I'd say that looks quite nice!

But, to hopefully kind of answer some of your questions:

> For the inside of the seam you said you cut lines for it to bend easier, but in order to achieve a sharper edge you need to either: 1) cut out a larger wedge section on the inside of the seam instead of just cutting lines or 2) use separate segments of foam. If you go with option 2, you'll want to be sure to bevel the mating edges of the foam to account for the thickness of the material. Options 1 and 2 should help you achieve a similar look to the folded paper shape, with a much crisper edge.

> I personally prefer to create custom templates instead of using pep files, so I can't totally answer your pep to foam template questions...but I would suspect that since the foam already has thickness you can skip any pep pieces that are intended to create a wall-thickness.

drack has some great tutorials on foam, so I'd definitely recommend checking them out for some tips: http://www.405th.com/showthread.php/37261-Foam-Technique-Tutorials

And as misfitjh mentioned, craft foam is quite helpful as well!

I hope that at least helps a little!

Lol I'm not pleased with it at all, but it does make me feel better that a few of you think it looks good on a first attempt. On the inside I did cut out segments where the line would be on the outside, but now I'm thinking I didn't make them big enough. I definitely didn't just make an incision on the opposite side, I did remove materiel.....maybe not enough. Great tip!

It also seems the more segments would be better from a what a few of you are saying... I was trying to be efficient and NOT cut into the large pieces but that's probably what worked against me. Next try I will use more pieces to try to get the lines I want. Custom templates? I'm not there yet but on the details I think I'll give that a shot!

When it comes to adapting the pepakura to foam, you don't need to follow the pattern precisely, and you can throw out some minor pieces.

You can actually use the thickness of the foam to save yourself some work on recessed areas and edges. Looking at that upper piece, I can see you bent the edges of the foam inwards; You could actually just cut the foam right there and the thickness of the foam will act as that face.

As to sharper edges, I tend to just use separate segments of foam and glue them together, you can look through my foam builds to get the idea.

OMG so I'm not crazy! I was going nuts trying to use every piece from pep to foam and I couldn't get it to work! OK, smaller pieces, leave em out, let the bigger piece do the work- got it! Also, moar segments- Will do!

I agree with everyone else. Mostly though, be patient. Although you have to work quick when hot-glueing the pieces together, the pre-planning, stenciling, cutting, sanding and pre-fitting pieces together is 90% of foaming. Working with foam is seriously making a giant puzzle. Think about how to put the pieces together before doing them. Work in layers (craft foam helps!).

And, as with any method of crafting, practice makes better.

The puzzle analogy is right, I did get that feeling more than I did with pep. I've just found that personally I'm good at pepping even really detailed items I just haven't been able to translate that to foam so well. I'm one of those people where if I get an idea, and I don't get it right the first time I get so pissed, bah! I did a lot of beveling with my dremel and that helped but I'm starting to think I didn't get the angles as right as I could....it's really hard to judge them before hand. It feels like I'm just winging it? I'm not sure... I'll try to plan out my moves a bit more next round. Now that I know I shouldn't be using the really small pieces I feel better about trying to smoosh them in.


Thank you everyone for your input, I don't feel as frustrated as before. Any other tips and advice are very much appreciated and welcome. I'll start working on doing the shoulder again and I'll post it when it's done so you all can tell me if its better or not. THANKS!

 

[vargatom]

Also make sure to watch drack's videos, for example on angled cuts and assembling the resulting pieces. Much quicker and cleaner than trying to do it with a dremel.

 

[Cobbatron]

Hey man, I'm gonna be straight up and tell you i was not making those files with the intent of making them out of foam

I'll cut you a deal, you tell me what parts you want foam ready, tell me what size you need them, and i will get the parts ready (meaning the pep file ready for foam) AND reveal some of my foam secrets

EDIT: Not trying to jack the thread but just going to show how much i work with foam and know my way around it...

100% foam

 

[Revenant1988]

Also make sure to watch drack's videos, for example on angled cuts and assembling the resulting pieces. Much quicker and cleaner than trying to do it with a dremel.

I'll check them out when I'm off work, thanks for the suggestion

Hey man, I'm gonna be straight up and tell you i was not making those files with the intent of making them out of foam

I'll cut you a deal, you tell me what parts you want foam ready, tell me what size you need them, and i will get the parts ready (meaning the pep file ready for foam) AND reveal some of my foam secrets

EDIT: Not trying to jack the thread but just going to show how much i work with foam and know my way around it...

100% foam

Oh no this is very helpful, don't worry about "jacking" this thread; until there is a foam sticky I'm sure someone will look at this and it will help them too.

The piece looks great- did you use any templates or was that free hand?

I free handed my boots alright but they were pretty simple. I love your files for the Mk V, I refuse to use others lol. They were great for capturing the details on a glassed piece, very minimal bondo work was required when I completed the first suit.

I actually have been inspecting them for foam and to be honest, I don't think any of them would be tough to foam, it's just that I suck!

For foaming your pieces, I think the Chest, shoulders, thighs, cod, and boots are fine. Admittedly, the only pieces I don't like for foam are the wrists and the shins (greaves). I'm going to order some thinner foam to try the wrists, but the shins won't look right I think. Maybe I should just try Moz's files for that one? Or maybe even free hand it?

You don't have to do anything special for me- sharing your files in the first place was WAY MORE than enough than I could thank you for. Your files are great, the only one I didn't like (and it's just by personal preference) was the shins . I never had any trouble scaling the files, whatever you used off the bat was great, I could adjust them really easy. They required minimal modification to fit my skinny frame.

 

[Revenant1988]

Update, new question

I just want to say thanks again for the advice and links to Drack's videos, there were a couple of good tips in there that I was doing wrong that helped me improve tremendously- the main one being not switching blades often enough!

Today I decided to try a different piece that would be a little easier to mess with- the cod piece. I used Rhinoc's file for the front, and then I just free handed something quick and easy for the sides and back. I did this because I'm not a fan of the space diaper. I think the REACH style of cod armor is the best for costuming- you get the look in the front with the freedom to actually sit down. So, mine is a hybrid of the Mk V in front and Reach-esque in the back.

Don't mind the tape, it's temporary to hold it together

Also don't mind the large black spots, they are not holes or gaps but just sharpie from drawing. The seams on this are much better than the shoulder above

Just some random design on the back to make it look more "busy" and less plain.

My next question

What are the methods that you guys like to use to strap and harness your foam pieces? For my fiberglass build, I used a combination of hot glue, JB Weld, and pop-rivets to join straps to the glassed pieces.

What is good to use on foam? I get the feeling that hot glue may not be as good for this because of the flex the foam can have, but am I completely wrong on that?

The piece is big enough that I won't have to worry about stretching but it is fairly firm on my body depending on how I can rig a web belt to it.

I'm also going to re-do the above shoulder piece to see if I improve it enough- I don't want to finish a piece until I get enough people that tell me it looks like it should!

 

[DBmike]

What are the methods that you guys like to use to strap and harness your foam pieces?

I'm about to tackle this one myself, having seen another members rig up close i'm going with something similar, get some nylon strapping make a band around the waist with two straps that go from front over the shoulders then down to the back and then straps down the arms and legs with snap clips (no idea what they're actually called) to connect limbs to the main assembly, this will be hot glued in place with padding over the top glued in place, for padding i'll use car wash sponges.

I'm not sure if thats how anyone else has done it but i can't see why it wouldn't work tbh

Hope that helps
DBmike

 

[Revenant1988]

I'm about to tackle this one myself, having seen another members rig up close i'm going with something similar, get some nylon strapping make a band around the waist with two straps that go from front over the shoulders then down to the back and then straps down the arms and legs with snap clips (no idea what they're actually called) to connect limbs to the main assembly, this will be hot glued in place with padding over the top glued in place, for padding i'll use car wash sponges.

I'm not sure if thats how anyone else has done it but i can't see why it wouldn't work tbh

Hope that helps
DBmike

The actual harness setup is not what I'm having issues with it's the actual joining of the the straps TO the foam pieces that I don't want to mess up. Hot glue is flexible enough, but I'm just nervous about actually trying it, it seems like it might just rip right off the foam. For example, on a fiberglass shoulder piece I used JB Weld to hold the strap to the piece, then it was joined to the harness with clips. This worked because the FG is heavier so something like hot glue wouldn't cut it.

Obviously, foam is much lighter but I've got some product coming in that *may* harden foam so its similar to FG on the outside. I don't know what kind of weight it will add yet so that's why I was curious as to what/how the foamers use to strap their suits. If the answer really is as simple as hot glue then I'll move on I just need some more confirmation.

I've got work at my second job tonight so I still haven't had a chance to finish my re-do with the advice I got above. Hopefully I'll have it up by Friday.

OH, and the car sponges for padding? GREAT IDEA. I'm stealing it!

 

[drack]

I just hot glued my straps to my suit. As long as you make sure there is no paint/primer on the foam then it should hold fast. I had a small trace of primer that snuck in on the inside of one of my thigh pieces and the strap pulled off. Wasn't a biggy to attach a new one. The glue pulled the primer off so at least I knew I had a nice clean spot for the new strap.

Tom.

 

[Revenant1988]

I just hot glued my straps to my suit. As long as you make sure there is no paint/primer on the foam then it should hold fast. I had a small trace of primer that snuck in on the inside of one of my thigh pieces and the strap pulled off. Wasn't a biggy to attach a new one. The glue pulled the primer off so at least I knew I had a nice clean spot for the new strap.

Tom.

Thanks for the input!

So did you just sandwich the strap with hot glue to the piece?

I was thinking it might be a good idea to scuff up that area first so the glue might seep into a crack and hold better, but do you feel the hold is strong enough on it's own? Awesome vids by the way- I had no idea I needed to be switching blades faster, I just thought I sucked at cutting!

 

[Fudz073]

Thanks for the input!

So did you just sandwich the strap with hot glue to the piece?

I was thinking it might be a good idea to scuff up that area first so the glue might seep into a crack and hold better, but do you feel the hold is strong enough on it's own? Awesome vids by the way- I had no idea I needed to be switching blades faster, I just thought I sucked at cutting!

Hey man, Nice work so far!

Kinda in the same boat. I see you're getting some great advice from some pro's

Not much I can add though except your revelation on the blades! Figured this one out myself a while back while working on the Mk V. But once I notice I'm not cutting through the foam like it was butter, I tend to change them out. It really does help keep everything clean.

Question though - Are you using sandpaper or a dremel tool to dress the faces you are gluing together?

Anywho, good luck on your build and I can't wait to see the improvements!

 

[Revenant1988]

Hey man, Nice work so far!

Kinda in the same boat. I see you're getting some great advice from some pro's

Not much I can add though except your revelation on the blades! Figured this one out myself a while back while working on the Mk V. But once I notice I'm not cutting through the foam like it was butter, I tend to change them out. It really does help keep everything clean.

Question though - Are you using sandpaper or a dremel tool to dress the faces you are gluing together?

Anywho, good luck on your build and I can't wait to see the improvements!

Yeah the blade things should have been common sense, but when it would start to fail on foam I noticed it would still work great on cardstock so I didn't think anything of it. Now I know haha.

For the faces, it depends on the edge and the piece but for sharp angles I use the x-acto to get a clean surface on most pieces. I use the dremel for rounded areas but as you probably already know, the Mk V doesn't have a whole lot of them. I actually find myself not needing the dremel since I've been changing out baldes more often- less cleanup is required! I have used sandpaper on outside edges where the piece ends so I don't go too far in with a tool.

Update
It took me long enough, but I did finally get the 2nd attempt of a shoulder piece done. I do believe I see improvements, but I leave that to you guys to tell me.

The piece on the LEFT = first attempt
The piece on the RIGHT = second attempt

So, as you can see they look worlds different, but I don't know that it means "better". On the first piece, I didn't cut into smaller pieces, I assembled it in as large pieces as possible so there was a lot of folding....a lot of rounding.

On the second attempt I did the opposite, basically everywhere there was a line I cut and glued back together, so it looks more angular.

Is this how I should be working going forward? Is more cutting better? When I compare the foam piece to the pepped model, it's not EXACTLY like it, but it's pretty close..... I see warping in some places, but I'm thinking this has to be normal due to the flexibility of the foam and glue.

I DID take a heat gun all the way around the piece to "melt"(?) the foam a bit so it looks even better for painting now. Melted is probably the wrong word, but I'm not sure how else to say it lol.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to look at my attempts and share tips- I think I'll have a build thread started here soon when I have more to show. The goal is to do a Fiberglass and Foam build at the same time, step by step and then compare the results.

EDIT Just spent the last 6 hours making a boot, and I think I'm getting much better as I go. Seems like my past failing was not cutting into enough pieces to capture the edges I wanted. Now if only I hadn't scaled it 1.5 inches too short Yay for doing it again! lol

Thanks for all the help everyone, I think I was freaking out because I didn't have enough practice. Things are starting to get better with each piece now.