Want Halo Armor For Paintball And Airsoft?

[LT GRAVE]

outlaw-tiger & chwbcc - thank you



ghost147 - im saying, if you are going to do it, use materials that will not hurt you like fiberglass will. which is

also why i said the mask part. people say you learn by failure, people should also learn by others failures too.

ex: mine



overlord ian - these things mix all the time. not in speed ball, but in outdoor. besides the standard camo and

military get up, a lot of us make costumes for big games. i myself have gone as many anime characters. and once

you guys put your stuff on youtube and instrucibles.com it was going to happen. now instead of like the other

threads of people trying to do something stupid, i am trying to educate in a way of having them not get hurt and

ending up in the hospital missing an eye or having fiberglass shards removed.



ultrawombat222 - yes there will always be some idiot taht thinks they know more and ends up failing. people need to

realize that, something just dont work and to listen to people that have tried them. like the other thread i

read last night. a guy testing on one of his helms and showing the damage. then you have some 14 year old kid,

that thinks the know better. WRONG!



chiefer - i think he ment his airsoft rifle

 

[ImaGonnaGetYou]

well, there. the WPBU has been around for the past year, we are all over the world and normally deal with companies, media, government and police. we try to make sure that nothing bad happens to our sport like in germany which is trying to ban it completely and has recently had a german swat team raid a tournament and arrest all players. we are known where we are needed.

im sorry that i am proud that i have successfully grouped my association together with positive results. i was merely introducing my self.

and i do kinda have the right to say about the legalities and such, cause i am repeating the laws and regulations that north america goes by (with some variances depending on state or provinces). the whole entirety of this is to try to get people to learn a bit of safety so that no one has to go to the hospital over doing something trying to be cool.

so try reading again, paragraph 1: intro, paragraph 2: subject, then the closing. or do i have to get the big crayon out for you to understand?

and just inbcase you have seemed to miss it again THE POST IS ABOUT BEING SAFE, NOT COOL.

WPBU: safety - responsibility - leadership

I'm just saying that as you've already been around for here for a bit, it seemed more like an attempt to inflate your legitimacy than an introduction.



If by crayon you mean using some grammar and/or basic typing skills, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, you're a terrible leader if you use insults to prove a point.



And I never said anything about the post's intent on being cool. I said that it is basically what every other post in paintball/airsoft armor topics are. If you want to actually prove your point instead of trying hopelessly to argue that it is valid:



1. Do some tests and research on what armor materials can or cannot stand up to airsoft BBs/paintballs.

2. Grammatically revise your OP so it's reader-friendly.

3. Read up on laws for the UK, US, Canada, and other countries, as your apparent interpretation of the law, even in North America, is lacking.



I'd like to see a sticky or help topic on this to stop the constant flow of topics, but this is not the way to go about it, with assumptions and inaccuracies all over the place.

 

[Rampant Seraph]

do tell me if I'm wrong, but out of my own experience I use military BDU's and chemical pants for woodland games and hit things that should have, by all means ripped me up but not even slamming into a thorn tree at a dead run has pierced any of my gear, and I play with/against some really hard hitting guns (around an average of 380 to 450 fps electric AUGs) in relatively close range and while it may sting, I've never had a bb puncture my BDU's. what I'm saying is just because a bb does in fact puncture a suit how would those shards puncture what nothing else can? now I can see the obvious safety issues with using a halo helmet in these sports and not having anything on underneath the helmet to stop debris, and i fully agree that using a regulation helmet should be a big no brainer, but i can't see the actual body that is protected by BDU's being much of an issue.

Also, couldn't the armor just be layered with a very strong sealant to keep the bb's from puncturing the suit? i mean if a plastic paintball helmet can take those impacts without a scratch to show for it, then I'd think that a heavily reinforced suit could take the same kind of beating shouldn't it? :unsure

oh and another bit of food for thought, as it was already pointed out, the smaller BB's require greater power to maintain their accuracy, but lose most of that power mid flight, with a paintball however, it doesn't have the same issue of stabilized flight as it's smaller variant, so it requires less energy to reach it's target, that's essentially why the muzzle velocity of the smaller airsoft markers are so much higher. also, when playing in woodland, the group i'm with will opt for higher velocities so that the immense undergrowth of the forest doesn't send the most accurate of shots astray and even then it isn't always enough.

 

[ImaGonnaGetYou]

do tell me if I'm wrong, but out of my own experience I use military BDU's and chemical pants for woodland games and hit things that should have, by all means ripped me up but not even slamming into a thorn tree at a dead run has pierced any of my gear, and I play with/against some really hard hitting guns (around an average of 380 to 450 fps electric AUGs) in relatively close range and while it may sting, I've never had a bb puncture my BDU's. what I'm saying is just because a bb does in fact puncture a suit how would those shards puncture what nothing else can? now I can see the obvious safety issues with using a halo helmet in these sports and not having anything on underneath the helmet to stop debris, and i fully agree that using a regulation helmet should be a big no brainer, but i can't see the actual body that is protected by BDU's being much of an issue.

Also, couldn't the armor just be layered with a very strong sealant to keep the bb's from puncturing the suit? i mean if a plastic paintball helmet can take those impacts without a scratch to show for it, then I'd think that a heavily reinforced suit could take the same kind of beating shouldn't it? :unsure

oh and another bit of food for thought, as it was already pointed out, the smaller BB's require greater power to maintain their accuracy, but lose most of that power mid flight, with a paintball however, it doesn't have the same issue of stabilized flight as it's smaller variant, so it requires less energy to reach it's target, that's essentially why the muzzle velocity of the smaller airsoft markers are so much higher. also, when playing in woodland, the group i'm with will opt for higher velocities so that the immense undergrowth of the forest doesn't send the most accurate of shots astray and even then it isn't always enough.

The thing is that BDU's are able to move around and distribute the force of the impact over basically the entire piece of clothing, making it not rip. Armor is completely (or, almost completely) solid, so the force is applied to a very small area which magnifies it instead of dissipating. There is no way to seal or protect the armor besides adding bulk, which obviously isn't good for reflex and motion intense activities like running, aiming, getting shot, etc.



As for paintballs vs. airsoft BB's, paintballs not only distribute their force over a wider area (due to the larger size/surface area), they explode from the force instead of digging into the target. As for BB's, the round has a smaller surface area, so applies more force to a smaller area, and don't explode/pop/whatever, so continue forcing into the target until all of the energy is spent.



Tl;dr version: Airsoft BB's do more damage because they are smaller and don't expend energy by exploding. Not exactly sure on the physics aspect, as I haven't even taken the class yet, but that does sound about right. Correct me on anything I said wrong, though.



But airsoft BB's are fairly similar in speed to paintballs because they lose a lot of momentum in air while paintballs are heavier and therefore do not, so in essence the speed is at least somewhat equaled out if it's not a point blank shot.



That was way too much typing for what seems irrelevent right now. But, basically, speed does not make the difference, the size and force does. >.<

 

[LT GRAVE]

well "imgonnagetyou' about the testing, i am following thee ASTM standards which are the rules and regulations for all safety equipment in north america. they are the ones that do testing on things. as of right now

lexan plastic, carbon fiber, ballistics plastic and some abs are he only things that have been cert for field use, this also depends on the thickness. 1/8th thickness is the minimum depending on the media used.

SO i was giving options in the 4 point that i put up, 3 going by the safety rules and regs set for north america and one other.

this is not to protect you from paintballs. if anyone thinks that they need to give their head a shake. this is to protect you from having your armor/costume from fragging into you skin.

the only protection you can get for paintball is regulation goggles and padding, that is it.



does that make it more clear for you?





rampant - by helmet do you mean the mask/goggles or an actual helmet?

 

[Rampant Seraph]

on the helmet i was referring to a full head helmet usually used for paintball.

i still want to know if the fragmentation of the suit in a worst case scenario would penetrate doubled up BDU's after being hit by a paintball going say the full 280fps at extreme CQB?

as for reinforcing the suit, that was only asking if there was a good resin or applicable plastic or other light material that would literally deflect the bb/ball off the surface of the suit instead of absorption.

 

[LT GRAVE]

ok, double set of bdu or acu's would possibly stop the penetration of fiberglass, but you will be sweating like hell in that. fiberglass is strong, which is why we use it, but in a setting where you have projectiles being fired at you, its not. look at how BPV's work (bullet proof vest). vests used to be a steel plate to stop the round, then they moved over to synthetics, which are just glorified padding. they also use ceramics for trauma plates, but they are 1 use. when hit they turn to powder.

using something like the foam is the best bet for this. the foam can give you some protection and can also stand up to the punishment. google cosplay gundam suits. 90% of those things are made from the flex foam and look damn good.



i will talk to my field about doing some test runs to make people happy, but i doubt they will allow on the indoor field cause of the possible shards. but i will see what i can come up with. ill also vid it and use the standard and extreme on my old shoulders and thigh plates. both have 3 layers of fiberglass cloth (not matting) and a generous amount of resin and thin coat of bondo

 

[009 SPA]

I was just wondering, how thick does fibreglass have to be to not crack after being pummelled by paintballs? And what would adding metal to the armour do? Or a rubber mat underneath each plate to stop shattered plates from entering your body? Does anybody know what hard materials would be suitable for general paintball use, not this hardcore stuff that everybody's on about?

 

[LT GRAVE]

I was just wondering, how thick does fibreglass have to be to not crack after being pummelled by paintballs? And what would adding metal to the armour do? Or a rubber mat underneath each plate to stop shattered plates from entering your body? Does anybody know what hard materials would be suitable for general paintball use, not this hardcore stuff that everybody's on about?

try to stay away from metals, we use them for target practice and end up perforating them.

but the rubberized matting is good. its what i have on the inside of my EOD helmet. and if it is adheared properly so that it cant come off, it will stop fiberglass from breaking inwards. the anti-fatigue mats are awsome for paintball padding, they stand up very well as long as there is some fabric on the outside of it.

 

[009 SPA]

Oh, thanks! May I ask what metals you use and how thick they are? And in simple terms, how powerful are your markers compared to the ones that someone might use when they go for a paintball day, and get given ones to use? Sorry for the complete lack of knowledge by the way.

 

[Rampant Seraph]

thanks for getting that pretty well cleared up for me, one more thing before i'd like to ask about, what would you think of essentially a similar build like the one you just noted, only adding an abs layer on top followed up by one last layer of resin? do you think that would be a good placement for a best probable deflection/absorption build while still holding the suit together?



as for weight and heat, i don't think that would be too much of an issue for me, i'm so used to pack muling the fireteam's ammo and supplies all the time anyway :rolleyes , i don't think i'd notice the difference if i removed the 50lbs of supplies and added the armor instead.



oh! wait! fun idea, use the rubber met idea and when ever the armor is punctured, clean it out and fill it up with new materials, bio foam for your armor! WOOT!

 

[ninjaspartan]

here you want to mimick bullet proof vest, get some vests and replace the armour plates with ones made frome just resin those disintegrate, or you could just go buy an armour plate carrier vest (err ill give you guys a link to if you want it) those are thick and will protect you way better than a fibre glass suit

 

[ImaGonnaGetYou]

ok, double set of bdu or acu's would possibly stop the penetration of fiberglass, but you will be sweating like hell in that. fiberglass is strong, which is why we use it, but in a setting where you have projectiles being fired at you, its not. look at how BPV's work (bullet proof vest). vests used to be a steel plate to stop the round, then they moved over to synthetics, which are just glorified padding. they also use ceramics for trauma plates, but they are 1 use. when hit they turn to powder.

using something like the foam is the best bet for this. the foam can give you some protection and can also stand up to the punishment. google cosplay gundam suits. 90% of those things are made from the flex foam and look damn good.



i will talk to my field about doing some test runs to make people happy, but i doubt they will allow on the indoor field cause of the possible shards. but i will see what i can come up with. ill also vid it and use the standard and extreme on my old shoulders and thigh plates. both have 3 layers of fiberglass cloth (not matting) and a generous amount of resin and thin coat of bondo

Flex Foamit will NOT hold up to a paintball or airsoft round, first of all, unless you have your own test results to show, or a legitimate source to say that it does. It's even MORE expensive than regular casting resins, so don't encourage people to spend extra money without having a reason or proof that it works.



Second, you're completely overlooking denting, chipping, or other severe armor damage that will result even if the fiberglass, resin, or other material doesn't break or become Swiss cheese.



If you can provide proof of any tests done to prove that a specific method of making armor wearable and relatively damage-proof for these sports, then you'll be much closer to having an undefeatable argument, but for some reason I'm thinking that you're unwilling to do so.

 

[LT GRAVE]

thepuma - we arent talking about BPV's. that was an explanation of how protectin works and relates to the pb style build process



009-spa - i said stay away from metals. use things that are like padding



imgonnagetyou - your complaining is starting to get annoying! if you would actually read a post properly, i said that i was going to go to my field and do some testing.

here i have been trying to help people not waste time on trying to make something that could seriously hurt them and create something they could have fun with. i have had many years of experience in PB (17yrs) and have created many props for it. i have created my own variant of BGC armor a few years ago with much success. also i have spent a lot of time testing the things that i have created before i have taken them onto the field, except for my resent armor creation from here.

so unless you have some valid advice on aiding the topic, stop whining like some megalomaniac teenager that thinks they know everything!

so far everyone else has made points, suggestions and questions, which has helped the thread grow and become more knowledgeable.



thank you to all the questions and helpful comments

 

[Arithen]

ghost147 - im saying, if you are going to do it, use materials that will not hurt you like fiberglass will. which is

also why i said the mask part. people say you learn by failure, people should also learn by others failures too.

ex: mine

Yes, I realize this thank you. However, if someone fails, the chances of getting hurt in the process and screwing over the two sports as well as a bad rep for costume builders is quite a bit higher. I am all for learning from your mistakes, except that it's not just the person who failed that get's the bad heat, it's the entire community!



Which is why i would never even think of promoting the use of custom made halo armor in a sport like paintball or airsoft. If you respect the sports as you claim you do, then you shouldnt be making these suggestions at all.

 

[Sangheili811]

If you can provide proof of any tests done to prove that a specific method of making armor wearable and relatively damage-proof for these sports, then you'll be much closer to having an undefeatable argument, but for some reason I'm thinking that you're unwilling to do so.

He can't but I will: http://405th.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22194&st=0&p=353637&#entry353637



From there, I launched my ODST airsoft build here: http://405th.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22644&st=0&p=360202&#entry360202



I hesitated getting involved in this thread for fear of getting crucified, but I can't stay away any longer. Between the two threads linked above, I believe I have addressed every concern associated with playing airsoft (maybe not paintball) in some armor. Using the right methods, it is childishly easy to make a suit bb-proof. In fact, I'm surprised one of you hasn't done it yet, almost everyone on this site has more skills and resources than I. I'm not trying to make enemies, but, as Lou Costello used to say, "I've seen what I saw when I saw it," and I've seen a pep piece stop a 407fps shot at absolutely point blank range. That's conclusive in mind. If you all want to flame me for the rest of the thread, fine, but you're not changing my mind or what I observed.



Sorry if that came across as caustic, but I'm sick of people saying so authoritatively that you CAN NOT airsoft in armor. Run some of your own tests before you say that.

 

[LT GRAVE]

ghost, good concern, i would like to raise the point that on this forum, people will read the posts most of the time. and the fact that we are addressing this, people will learn.

but heres the part of the concern. paintball is not looked upon fairly for 2 reasons. please here this out before i get into the 405th reasons. reason 1 which is a long standing one, guys in camo. just because we wear camo to be able to hide on a outdoor field we get things like wannabe military. doesnt help out sport. then reason 2. this is now this biggest problem there is.

only for the past years, paintball has become big enough to be made available in places like walmart where and kid can go and get one without being ID'd for 18+. their parents have no clue until they get arrested for shooting up the town.

also with the point of someone getting hurt on the field wearing our stuff. do you have any idea of how many stupid people lift their mask cause they are hot or got shot out, while in the middle of a firefight? bing a rep for safety and an occasional ref. i have run across streams of paint being lit up to try to save some idiots eyes from being shot out because they cant follow the rules.



and now the 405th side of this.

using youtube is one way most of us have found you. instructables.com is the other one, which i found. because of social networking, you have opened up pep to many people cause of having halo as the basis for it. now with or without you people are going to do something stupid. since anyone can go grab a pep viewer and some files to make it, at least here people will know better. but since anyone can do it, anyone will do it to be cool. pep files just make it easier.



so yes there is some concern over possible community flack, but you can get that with or without this thread. people are still going to do it, we can only hope that some may be educated by this and know a bit better.

but now im starting to ramble and my baby is crying....again

 

[LT GRAVE]

Sangheili811 - thanks for the assist. i appreciate the time you have taken to test your armor build. and this may help some people out with the conflict in this thread.

but i do hope that people will also test their armors threshold before attempting a live run.

 

[Camofred]

ghost, good concern, i would like to raise the point that on this forum, people will read the posts most of the time. and the fact that we are addressing this, people will learn.

but heres the part of the concern. paintball is not looked upon fairly for 2 reasons. please here this out before i get into the 405th reasons. reason 1 which is a long standing one, guys in camo. just because we wear camo to be able to hide on a outdoor field we get things like wannabe military. doesnt help out sport. then reason 2. this is now this biggest problem there is.

only for the past years, paintball has become big enough to be made available in places like walmart where and kid can go and get one without being ID'd for 18+. their parents have no clue until they get arrested for shooting up the town.

also with the point of someone getting hurt on the field wearing our stuff. do you have any idea of how many stupid people lift their mask cause they are hot or got shot out, while in the middle of a firefight? bing a rep for safety and an occasional ref. i have run across streams of paint being lit up to try to save some idiots eyes from being shot out because they cant follow the rules.



and now the 405th side of this.

using youtube is one way most of us have found you. instructables.com is the other one, which i found. because of social networking, you have opened up pep to many people cause of having halo as the basis for it. now with or without you people are going to do something stupid. since anyone can go grab a pep viewer and some files to make it, at least here people will know better. but since anyone can do it, anyone will do it to be cool. pep files just make it easier.



so yes there is some concern over possible community flack, but you can get that with or without this thread. people are still going to do it, we can only hope that some may be educated by this and know a bit better.

but now im starting to ramble and my baby is crying....again

Ok first i am tiered of people cliaming to be "Experts" or "Authorities" on these things and not knowing you cannot buy compressed C02 or a paintball marker without proof that you are 18.

Second, i have heard the term "serious injury" used in this thread multiple times from "Extreme equipment failure"

where as the most extreme injury i can think of is fragging yourself with with some fiberglass shrapnel or a paint ball to the eye if you ARE stupid enough to take your mask off in a fire fight.

third, don't get miffed at someone because they dis you or don't follow your ideals. not everybody will agree on the same thing. get. over. it. be the bigger man.

forth, there is a difference of what light you are viewed in if you tell someone padding is better than metal or saying "i said stay away from metals. use things that are like padding"



just my two cents but wouldn't you armor suit have a layer of foam or padding to make it more comfortable? and is this not also a barrier to shrapnel

a airsoft round would not fragment a piece of fiberglass but rather penetrate it , as it has a smaller surface area do dissipate the energy across so the shock has less spread area this video , by CREDITED experts explains this better. the video



judst my 2 cents after having looked at this thread for 2 days and not been able to post.

 

[Arithen]

The point of our rants are that there is more potential of getting injured AT ALL. It doesnt have to be serious or not to your conditions, but to the media a somewhat damaged eye is a big deal. especially when it involves gray area weapons. And because this potential exists, and is far greater then the regular gear that is meant for these sports, it is better off to avoid conflict than risk it and/or promote it.