Continuity: A thing of the past? (halo 4 and more)

AI Blue Fox

Well-Known Member
Exactly! At the end of halo 4 343 wrote" every great journey starts as a small step, thank you for tusting us with the unverse that we all know and love. 343

I think that they did a better job than bungie could.
Well, after Reach bungie made it painfully apparent that they stopped caring about story. good mechanics and what not (except for a certain female spartan) but the story lacked conviction for me. I also noticed in halo glasslands that Halsey mentioned noble team (she said "complete strangers wearing mjolnir armor (strangers as in spartans she didnt train)) Which i kind of what I would like to see more often from the actual developers of the games. This person was able to connect to separate storylines with one sentence slightly fixing a huge continuity error in the halo universe.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
I see a lot of references to different books in your complaints, and I feel something needs to be pointed out here: the books mean nothing. Look at Star Wars and Star Trek. There are literally hundreds of books in that universe, many that borrow characters and elements from the movies. They have deep, engaging storylines that could very well be tied in to any aspect of the established universe. But in spite of that and even though they are mainstream published media, they are still in effect little more than fan fiction. The stories and plots you find in the Halo books really have no bearing whatsoever on the games any more than the Star Wars and Star Trek books have on the movies and television series (heck even the adaptation books that are meant to represent the movies or specific episodes aren't compmletely spot-on).

Bearing this in mind, 6there really is little point in complaining about how the games didn't meet your expectations based on the books because they are essentially unrelated. However, I do agree with the continuity issues within teh games themselves. There was no explanation really as to why Chief's armor look so different between 3 and 4, but at the same time, there was no explanation for how or when he upgraded from Mk. V to Mk. VI between CE and 2. At least with that we could assume that since he was back on Earth he just went to the UNSC and they upgraded him, but it was still never addressed. As for the difference in the Dawn's appearance, after 4 years of drifting I would assume it would look different just from being out there and having various debris and gravity fields affecting it. The theory that Cortana was tinkering with the systems certainly could make sense as to why the overall appearance was different. Perhaps she had some onboard mech units (or whatever else was available) make what repairs and reconfigurations as they could so that the ship wouldn't be completely torn apart. while it drifted. 4 years with absolutely nothing else to do with herself, perhaps she was working to reconfigure what was left of the ship into something that could fly once more and transport her and the Chief back to Earth, or at least point them in the right direction.
 

AI Blue Fox

Well-Known Member
I see a lot of references to different books in your complaints, and I feel something needs to be pointed out here: the books mean nothing.
The books, unlike other series, are EXTREMLEY important to halo. Why are they called spartan IIs? the books. Why is doctor Catherine Halsey a character? the books. Why was halo reach made with spartan IIIs, the books allowed for more types of characters. Most of halo lore is thanks to the books. Karen Travis had a big effect on halo 4 with her recent books. they are official, and most certainly canon.

One to your second point, I agree, they need to do better at addrsssing his armor issues without just using the books to clean up their mess. cheif faught his way through a practice course, a space station, halo, and all the events in first strike in his mark V armor. It was trashed, so I'm glad they talked about it in the beginning of halo 2. in halo 3 all they did was change the handplate and removed an indent from his boot so they doesn't really matter. As for the forward unto dawn, I would agree, the problem is it matches directly with the new frigate that we see in the spartan ops intro video when infinity returns to requiem. we can theorize, but in the end, like with chief's armor, it is simple laziness and rush to meet a release date.
 

Croc co

Member
Well, after Reach bungie made it painfully apparent that they stopped caring about story. good mechanics and what not (except for a certain female spartan) but the story lacked conviction for me. I also noticed in halo glasslands that Halsey mentioned noble team (she said "complete strangers wearing mjolnir armor (strangers as in spartans she didnt train)) Which i kind of what I would like to see more often from the actual developers of the games. This person was able to connect to separate storylines with one sentence slightly fixing a huge continuity error in the halo universe.
bungie = worse than grunts.....
but seriously 343 must love halo, and im happy to fork out wads of cash to buy their games, besides ive found a despawning glitch on requiem! ( despawns first group of enemys you encounter while riding the warthog)
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
They are official in that the author has to get their work licensed by Bungie/343i in order to use the Halo universe, and so that Bungie/343i can make sure that nothing is being put out there that they don't approve of. The thing is, Halsey would be a character regardless of the books because someone had to be responsible for the creation of the Spartan program. Spartan IIIs and Spartan IV's, and any future iterations don't really need books to be made a reality because any time a change or improvement is made to any formula or system, generally a new name is given. WIndows. Windows 95. Windows 98. WIndows ME, NT, XP, Vista, 7, 8, there has to be a progression or else there is no progress, that's just how it works. "Camaro" has been a CHevy model for nearly 50 years now, and while they're all called "Camaro" there is still a first, second, third, fourth, and fifth generation. All of these things would still be present in the Halo universe, the books just give an explanation without there needing to be another game made to fill in the gaps. And even with the level of technology we have available to make the games, it's still not quite at the same level as the human mind or our imagination, so all that we have seen thus far is likely still years and generations away from the original vision. Maybe the Forward Unto Dawn that you have come to recognize in Halo 3 looks nothing like what they had originally intended it to be, and 343i's version is jsut a step closesr, but still not quite there yet. It can, and most likely will, change again. Look at Halo CE vs. Halo Anniversary. Same exact game, same story, same characters, same plot, but the way things move, the way things look, the very essence and feel of everything is so very, very different because there's a decade of difference in what Bungie was able to do and what tools they had to work with. The Mk V. armor of CE looks so very different from the Mk. V in Anniversary, even though they're meant to be the exact same thing. Why is it then so hard to swallow that Halo 4 Chief and Halo 3 Chief are wearing the same armor, just reimagined through the higher level of technology available?
 

vargatom

Member
If 343 would keep everything the same, then what's the point of making another Halo game? This should apply to gameplay and visuals equally...
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
Quite true. And Halo 3 (the last time we saw Chief) was released in 2007. After 5 years of new developement, new technology, and pretty much an entirely new design team, personally I would be sorely disappointed if everything looked exactly the same as before.
 

vargatom

Member
And the Mark VI design was basically the same that we've seen in Halo 2, back in 2004 - about 8 years old.

The Reach version of the Mark V was actually used as a start, but it wasn't heroic enough IMHO - still, there are many similarities in the designs.
It's just that the new Mark VI has more tank and jetfighter in it - robust limbs, but a slim waist and a more streamlined chest and helmet, and the shoulders also look a bit like control surfaces ;)
 

demo084

Jr Member
So I skimmed through this thread.

First: 343 and Bungie are two different companies. In order to make your mark in the world you have to do something different. Although, I will agree with some of your points 343 did tick me off. First off, look through all the Halo games up to H4. In reality, and it's been proven here, all the helmets could have real world applications (minus the hyabusa). Now 343's helmets resemble japanesse anima or power rangers.

Second: ODST, I loved the game. First, if you played H3 you know that the Elites were knocked off the tier system of the covenant and replaced by the brutes. So it makes sense that brutes would have that technology and elites wouldn't exist in the game. The physics are slightly off, but it could take up to a full clip or more to down a brute. The story line was awesome, and a good side story to the series.

Lastly: Even in the Star Wars universe you can poke holes in the plot line all day by qouting fan-fiction books. Which in essence is any book written by someone who doesn't work for 343 or Bungie. So to become upset or irrate over the fact that the company didn't follow a fan's story is useless. It could also open up Bungie/343 to plagurism or having to pay royalties to the authors and publishers. I've seen a new thread on here where a member is posting his own story line based in the Halo universe. Good on him and if he chooses to differ from the origional plot I wouldn't mind. So don't get torn up over inaccuracies in a fiction story line, especially when we have so many in our worlds own historical documents.
 

AI Blue Fox

Well-Known Member
With starwars, the fanmade books were revoked by lucas himself saying "luke doesn't get married, vader doesnt come back to life, and the emperor doesnt get cloned. the story of starwars is the tragedy of darth vader"

The halo books, when they first came out, were commisioned BY bungie to explain what was going on, so that those who played the first game and wanted to find out what happened previously could go back a read a book about it. They used the devices in the books to help form the story and tragedy of the spartans and humanities fight against humanity. Unfortunatley, Bungie decides to leave us for other things, and in my mind abandoned their chance at "world domination." 343 comes into the fray. Named an created because of Halo, they give the impression they will stay true to halo and make better what bungie left behind. What they failed to realise is that what bungie showed as vagueness was really opertunities for writings to create epic stories in gaps in time and new armor (if nobody noticed the mark v {b] armor appeared first in halo: the Cole protocol) so that they could build astanding relationship between the two: Kickass games with great visuals and fun to use controls and fantastic story and characters, which can be carried into the thrilling, edge-of-your-seat, page turning books that we have today, curtesy of Eric Nylund, Tobias S. Buckel, Karen Travis, and many more. 343 couldn't see this, and mistaken it as a way to make it THEIR franchise by changing things to match THEIR vision. They had people wright books to help with their games (Greg bear and Karen Travis) but in essence changed halo.

The one thing I loved about halo is its ability to always feel like halo, no matter what game. Halo CE gave us a whole new world to explore and play around in, from the rivetingg thick story to the wonderful splitscreen multiplayer. Halo 2 intreduced a new action packed sequal with tons of new content an characters. Halo 3 combined the old and new with a nice tie up to the trilogy, with games like ODST and reach as cool side stories to the amazing series (though in my opinion reach was kinda rushed)

Some of you may not know this, but unlike most of you, I was only 6 when i first played halo right when it came out. My father, being a gamer, let me play co-op with him. Halo became an essential part of my childhood. I remember yellping like a little girl when my dad opened up his halo 2 limited edition and being able to play as the arbiter. I remember the look of awe i must of had on my face watching the into to halo 3, the nastalgia and excitment I had from the final level, and the lovley little cliff hanger bungie left after the credits. Through out those 6 years I played, replayed, and rereplayed those games. I developed a habit of always trying to match the weapons a positions that would appear in the cutscene. I also started watching my ammo counts, making sure my ma5b nly had theirteen rounds in it at the end of halo CE. It is safe to say Reach brumbled up my head with plot errors. took me about a week to come up with excuses for em (Karen Travis is my hero for fixing it in grasslands) and so i sat waiting for the next installment.

Halo 4 comes out, i got the limited edition, it reminding me of the halo 4 LE with the silver case. I throw it in, and strap in for a ride. The rest of my first impression you can see on the first page. obviously i have settled down since nov. and quite enjoy the game, but those changes, to someone like me who spent hours in their childhood adjusting a character just to match a cutscene seemed like a slap to the face. 343 is making this game now, and that is painfully obvious. I alone do not have the power to effect it, to keep something like this from happening, though I wish I did. That is why i made this thread, not because I hate 343 or condem the new halo and say that books > games, but because as a deep fan of the series I was hurt by some of the things they changed. Halo 4 lost that familiar halo playfeel that kept me buying. I now have to adjust years of habit to match this new feeling. It will be a...fascinating ride.

and to demos point, I AGREE, one helmet looks like they took issac clarkes health cord and put it on the front of a helmet! it doesnt even look that cool, just weird. atleast they brought back the classic scout helmet.
 

vargatom

Member
A lot of the helmets are homages to various X360 games.
Venator - Dead Space
Oceanic - Bioshock
Locus - Gears of War
Old Mark VI is obviously Halo 2/3, and EOD looks like a stormtrooper from Star Wars, although it always used to. I'm sure there are a few others I don't get, not playing games all the time anymore ;)

As for the armor in general, well, some don't really work for me either and some are really ugly. But there are many that I really like:
- air assault
- gungnir
- mark VI old style
- operator
- pathfinder
- recon
- recruit
- scout
- venator
And others aren't bad either, like infiltrator, enforcer, war master, warrior...

But all in all I prefer this more athletic and streamlined look, compared to the bulky Reach armor or the impossible Halo 3 version (it's really obvious that no human can fit inside those). What I really wonder about though is where Halo 5 might be going, the next Xbox will surely offer some new features that can offer even more detail and better shading - but will 343 keep the style, or will they go on exploring new options? Especially now that there could be an in-universe explanation for Chief to upgrade his gear...
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
Learning that little tidbit about you kidna makes it hard for me to take much of your arguements seriously now, Blue. When Halo first came out, I was about as old THEN as you are NOW. I'll spare you my typical rant about how negligent and irresponsible parents are for letting kids play an M 17+ rated game. At least your dad took the time to play with you instead of using the game as a babysitter, I'll give him that much credit. But this also sheds some light on your perspectives. You're young. We might only be about a decade apart in age, but the way this society is going that's a whole world of difference. You talk about how 343i is abandonning the books and the authors who filled in so many gaps, and that's a load of bunk. I've seen at least two, maybe three books announced ON Waypoint in the time that 343i took the reins of the Halo universe (among them Tobias Buckel), so obviously 343i is still very much involved with the authors. The difference is they are making THEIR game now, not Bungie's, even though many members of the 343i team came FROM Bungie, so it really should not come as any surprise that things are goign to be different. Since we're throwing around Star Wars analogies with increased frequency, Disney now owns the rights to Star Wars, not George Lucas, and they've already announced they will be making Staar Wars VII. I can guarantee you that it will NOT be like the rest of the Star Wars movies. Heck, the prequels and the original trilogy were all made by Lucas and there is a very, VERY noticable difference in the look and feel of them, because the times have changed, the audience has changed, and the technology available has changed. Yes, many people who played Halo CE when it first came out are still around, but there are also people who are completely new to the series who are just now getting in to it. 343i Has to change with the times, and consequently the Halo universe as we know it will change.

On the side notes I will join in with Demo084 and say that the majority of the Halo 4 helmets are just outright hideous. They look and feel alien. They don't fit the human anatomy at all. The lack of visors in several of them is absurd. The Reach Gungnir I could excuse because it had this big honkin' nose on it that could believably contain a display screen and visual receptors. The Infiltrator, Protector, Vanguard, etc., it barely looks like there's room for a head in there, much less monitors and cameras. The Pioneer and Wetworks have visors, but in all practicality they would be useless. Wetworks is just a narrow vertical slit you'd have to be cross-eyed to see anything out of, and Pioneer only offers a small round hole your forehead or your chin to see out of, with the area you would naturally look out of being completely blocked off. Armor from the neck down is fine enough, althoguh only a few really look all that great in my opinion. But the helmets, I really feel like they came up short on this one, and I'm not just saying that because I'm disappointed that the H4 Rogue looks like hot garbage compared to the H3 version. I really feel that they (343i) dropped the ball on the helmets this time around.
 

AI Blue Fox

Well-Known Member
Times are changing, doesnt always meen its for the better. in the last ten years society itself has evolved from being perfectly reasonable to spank your children when the misbehave to letting them do what they want and have smartphones at 8. I wasn't allowed to play M games or watch R movies like other kids were, but halo was an exception. ten year may seem like a huge gap to you, but to me, someone with love for the pop culture of the 80's, born and raised in the 90s, early 2000's and experiencing the change firsthand in society up to know, I believe Ive more then made up for my less then satisfactory age. My arguments come from the heart of a halo fan, and to tell you the truth, look what happens when people change things because of the times. The prequel Trilogy was hated by the older fans for changing tons of stuff to fit the younger generation, though People like me and my father easily look past that because the changes were small and stupid to fight over. The thing is, 343i can do whatever they want, and making THEIR game has results that effect the older fans. sure, it may not affect you, but this thread was made to talk to others who may also be affected by this and possible, though unlikeley, solutions. At least ones better then getting bought out by Disney.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
The thing is, any time something gets handed off to a new team, even within the same company, things will be different. I wouldn't say it's pointless to argue over it, but it is in a way because it is going to happen no matter what. A lot of what you've been arguing is aesthetics, how things don't look the same as they did before. All in all that means little when the storyline itself is staying consistant. Chief was still on the Dawn, it was still just him and Cortana, the only thing that really doesn't seem to make sense plot-wise in my book is that the Covenant still exists in any form, and moreso that the Eliets are still a part of it. The elites were the ones who discovered that all that the Prophets had said was false, and they were cast out of the Covenant order because of it. Now, maybe there are other prophets besides Truth, Mercy, and Regret, and maybe they were able to bring the Jackals and Grunts back into the fold, so to speak, but I would imagine the Elites would have nothing to do with them. It would make more sense for the Brutes to still be around (and personally I'd much rather see an upgraded Mauler than an overhauled Plasma Rifle), but because of the personality of the Brutes, I don't imagine they would have stuck around long after the events of Halo 3 because they'd see the Covenant on a whole as being weaker than they are, and thus unworthy of them. To me, that's something much more deserving of debate than Chief's armor looking different or the Dawn not looking exactly the same. I mean, I notice nobody is really saying much about how much Cortana's appearance has changed between CE and now. SO it's really only certain visual details that seem to irk people.
 

RadioactiveMicrobe

Well-Known Member
Not to mention the fact that Master Chief grew about a foot in the final cutscene as opposed to other parts of the game.

The fact that most helmets in multiplayer are literally impossible for a human to see out of.

I hate Spartan-IV's. They're just ODST's in fancy armor.

And (just going by what the game said, I know what actually happens) We start fighting the covenant with no more explanation than "A lot can happen"

And you might not have thought about it if you read the books, but they do literally NOTHING to explain who the Didact is. NOTHING.

Also, the terminals screw up what the Forerunner saga established pretty badly.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
RadioactiveMicrobe said:
Not to mention the fact that Master Chief grew about a foot in the final cutscene as opposed to other parts of the game.
I think that's just because he's rarely seen next to any other humans in most cutscenes, and those that he is the camera angles don't really show the difference in height as well. And who knows, maybe Palmer is just that short.

The fact that most helmets in multiplayer are literally impossible for a human to see out of.
Yea, the helmets really sucked this time around. It's like they were trying too hard to be "futuristic" and lost the fact that a person has to be inside this thing somehow.

I hate Spartan-IV's. They're just ODST's in fancy armor.
Not quite that bad. They've still had the augmentations and other implementations that the older Spartans had, they just didn't get them as early in their life, and thus haven't truly grown into it. ODSTs were just ordinary marines with slightly better armor. Spartans, even Spartan IVs, have had biological and genetic alterations. Still, they do lack the same overall feel as the older Spartans, because they weren't "groomed" into it from an early age and thus have more, shall we wsay, "personality."

And (just going by what the game said, I know what actually happens) We start fighting the covenant with no more explanation than "A lot can happen."
Well, for the Chief it was more a matter of fighting because an Elite just tried to take his head off, and the rest of them are shooting at him. So really, that'smore along the lines of "fight back or die." Likewise once Infinity shows up the Covenant also attack them, so they're in the same boat, really. Perhaps what you meant to go for was "the Covenant start attacking us with no more explanation that a lot can happen in 4 years."

And you might not have thought about it if you read the books, but they do literally NOTHING to explain who the Didact is. NOTHING.
I haven't read the books but I feel they do give a fairly good picture of who the Didact is, and from the Implications of Spartan Ops thus far, he's not dead and there's reason enoguh that the character will be explored deeper. And if that's the case there are at least two more games (if 343i goes no further than their Reclaimer trilogy) in which such revelations can be made. Given that this 4th game (by number) is actually the 8th in the franchise, I'd say it's entirely likely that there will be other branch and spin-off games that could fill in the blanks even more. Personally I'm more interested in what became of the Brutes within the Covenant after Halo 3 than the life story of the Didact.
 
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