Public Announcement: Armor Impact Tests

[Mavrick]

You're testing the wrong things. Allow me to go over my qualifications first and then i will go into what matters and how it should be tested.



Safety Circumstances that NEED to be ignored: Rifle FPS(Keep reading for reason)



My qualifications:

I've been in airsoft for over 9 years now.

I'm a current member of SPEAR, a decent sized team in Ohio. SPEAR has been invovled in countless national airsoft events in and out of our state.

SPEAR AIRSOFT Website is out of date , but forums are not!

I belong to Airsoft Ohio, one of the largest Airosft Organizations in the US. I'm in the top for reputation as well as posting on the site. "Mavrick" = CLICK ME

My current team as well as previous teams have been hosting real events for years and do so well with success.

Just a couple of my guns that i've built and own All FPS tested with 0.2g bbs:

• ICS MP5 (All internals reworked) fps = 347-349. The most consistent gun i've ever built. At the time, most fields wouldnt allow over 350 (This was pre the cheap crappy cloners IE: JG, Echo 1 came onto the market with 400+ fps)
  
• ICS M4 (All internals reworked) fps = 376-380. Accuracy = 6inch diameter MAX deviation over 100ft.
  
• Classic Army SCAR - L (All internals reworked, new motor, AWS Micro controlled, LiPoly custom fitted into a MAGPUL UBR stock custom fitted stock plate to mount to the SCAR)
  

**All rifles used in the event are mandated chrono testing with Event Staff bbs (0.2g) to ensure that the rifle does not fire over 1.5 joules**



As an event organizer here are the following things that I abide by.(Listing items only relevant to the topic at hand)

• What are the field's insurance limitations? The field we host at proclaims that airsoft rifles are not allowed to be over 400 fps.(0.2g bbs) So, OP, by definition your gun wouldnt even be allowed to be used as testing as it doesnt apply to taking your armor to an event. MOST insurances will proclaim the same. NOTHING OVER 400fps(0.2g bbs). Why? Because the companies that issue insurance policies for airsoft are national companies, the rules apply everywhere.
  
• ANSI Z87.1 Protective FULL SEAL goggle.
  

Other than that, the sky's the limit because if the FPS is 400fps and below, all you're going to get is a few welts.(that do hurt, especially on the face and head) So, what are we actually worried about protecting? ONLY THE EYES!

Mouth guards are encouraged, but not necessary. I've had a few friends chip teeth over the years but I myself do not wear one. I just keep my mouth closed when i run into fire



I would allow a helmet IF ALL of the following conditions were met.

• The visor used is ANSI Z87.1 Rated AND it was attached to the Helmet properly.
  
• Foam seal was placed around the neck cavity to prevent bbs from entering.
  
• Helmet crafting material used could also compare to the ANSI Z87.1 rating. A HARD HAT has the Shore hardness of 75D and a thickness of 65mils. The helmet in question would have to meet those expectations. If the person could not prove those material specs, it would immediately be denied. Smooth-On offers the TASK Series Urethane plastics that boast a hardness of 75D and up. CLICK ME
  

OR

• A set of full seal ANSI Z87.1 rated goggles were worn underneath the helmet in question. Low profile goggles: CLICK ME I use these and they're great!
  

For the reasons specified, FPS of the Rifle is an INSIGNIFICANT Variable.





Some of the operators on my team use helmets. Like myself, some do not. Other than wearing a chest rig and eye protection, i feel the full force of the shots. I've been shot by some beefed up rifles in my day and have been left with nothing other than welts on my head and all around.



Bottom line, if your eyes are protected, it doesnt matter what your armor is made of. The only detrimental affect is that if you dont use a material that will withstand bb blasts you're going to waste alot of time and pride by ruining your suit.



Because of the ammatuer way of testing, i'm voting "NO" on the poll.

 

[loki0356]

ok guys i just went in two my backyard and shot my right front boot piece with 4.5mm steel bb cos powered rifel.

the boot has 2 coats on the out side and 1 coat with cloth on the inside it could not break the piece even with out body filler. so i believe that if you would add a couple more coats then you would be farilly safe. not saying your exposed body will be lol.and i agree with Mavrick.

 

[Flyerfye]

Oh hey Mavrick, I think I've heard of you guys! (Used to play Airsoft a lot.) I don't usually post in these threads because they just turn into anti-paintball/airsoft/whatever flame threads. So before the rest of you get to flaming and hunting, he has some very good points. Those of us who've actually gone out and played Airsoft on a proper field with a real team know it's not particularly about physical protection of the body, the only parts you need to worry about are eyes and teeth (I like my teeth, I'm very attached to my teeth), both of which can be properly protected even with a full non-rated helmet on. At that point, it's a matter of property damage to your armor, not a matter of personal safety. That being said, it's not a good idea to assume any piece of equipment or material is impervious to damage from paintballs, airsoft BBs, or simply falling on your butt. You go out into the world with any piece of gear, whether it was designed for the task or not, there's a chance it'll break. However, the choice of breaking your armor or not should be up to the owner of said armor. If they want to put their work into a suit (or purchase a suit) to have it shot up in an op or a skirmish, that is THEIR choice. I'm not sure why there's so much "if you want to do x, you're STUPID" around here, but blanket derogatory statements like that just aren't cool, in my opinion (unless it's a matter of safety/legality).



And like I always try to point out in these threads, those of you who'd rather get hit with a paintball than an Airsoft BB have it pretty dang backwards. Paintball hurts a LOT more. Most of the time when you get hit in airsoft, you feel a plink plink as tiny bits of plastic bounce off your clothes. Of course, I've also been shot in the head with a 500FPS airsoft sniper rifle from 50ft. THAT hurts. (Although I was asking for it for failing to use cover effectively.)



EDIT: It was brought up in another thread that shooting (and penetrating) a piece of armor could potentially cause fiberglass shards and fiberglass dust to come loose, and these are pretty dang dangerous. Some of my previous points are rescinded, as such. Airsoft and Paintball will require specially designed armor that won't allow this to happen.

 

[KCTattooist]

Has anyone tried shooting at a molded piece of armour yet?

You should see my helm . It is so tuff its practically DOT certified.. I mud glassed the helm. expanding foam the visor , I could literally beat the brakes off someone with this helm.

 

[Sangheili811]

I'm not sure if this thread is supposed to be a direct challenge to my thread (http://405th.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22194), but I'll post up anyway.



First of all, your findings don't match up against mine. My M14 shoots a neglidgable 3FPS less than your G36C, and I tested at under a yard, not 20-ft. My only explaination is that I used a rondo mix on my peice, you seemed to use traditional fiberglass methods. You can check the findings in my thread, but I would feel perfectly safe wearing certain pieces of fiberglass armor to the field, I see no reason why they would fail under fire. And I am not an airsoft noob. I've been playing the game on organized fields for years, a lot longer than I've been making armor.



That being said, though I would not be concerned about the fiberglass failing under fire, there are other concerns about wearing fiberglass armor, such as heat exhaustion, the extra weight, falling and breaking parts, the visor cracking, etc. But don't count out fiberglass because it doesn't stop BBs. It does when built right.



And just one more note, please don't take my comments personally. We all do this to have fun, and I'm trying to approach this problem as scientifically as possible. I certainly have no ill-will for anybody.

 

[ImaGonnaGetYou]

If you use multiple layers of fiberglass, I'm sure it'll at least moderately hold up to paintballs/airsoft pellets. I wish people would stop using a single layer and considering it complete proof. Also, mudglassing.



There is no definitive "yes" or "no" answer to this idea, regardless of a single layer of fiberglass failing. Test it yourself if you honestly want to play paintball/airsoft in a suit. If you don't have the patience or time to do your own experiments and tests, then you definitely won't have the time to finish a suit, or paintball/airsoft-proof one.



EDIT: I also agree with the some things Flyerfye pointed out. There are dangers from having fiberglass armor. That's why people should do some research instead of blindly following tutorials.



I swear, I'm just going to go out one day and do all of the testing for the people who want this so we can at least get a few decent ideas about how to protect your armor in stuff like this. These topics are completely pointless right now.

 

[Azzarth]

Thanks for all the replies people! Everyone has made some really good points, I was very surprised! Now to reply to the replies =S



Mavrick: Awesome points man, thanks for the really big list of facts also. But see, the reason for such a "amateur" test, though effective, is because of these reasons:



1: Most people around my age don't play organized airsoft at a certified field with all the proper equipment. Most people older than me have enough sense to never try and play airsoft in a Halo suit. I have played at a local field a few times, but note: it is not part of any organization, just a standalone field. They allow guns up to 450 FPS (I'll have to check, haven't been there for a while), and they go through the Chrono process also, so mine would be allowed. This test was just to show that a person with an average-slightly upgraded set of equipment should never attempt to play in an un-modified suit that they build as a costume.



2: I don't think a person who just plays airsoft for kicks (not in a professional field) is going to go get an ANSI Z87.1 rated goggle system, foam neck seal, and make sure that the helmet is 75D shore hardness just to play airsoft. They are going to grab their helmet and go.



3:As for the "If your eyes are protected it doesn't matter" thing, I agree. But the point I was trying to prove with this test is that you should never build a helmet with average specs and expect it to protect you completely.



Thanks again for the input, and gratz on being an Airsoft Ohio event organizer. Nice equipment too btw.

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Ioki0356: A 4.5mm BB gun is different than an airsoft gun. For one, airsoft rifles use 6mm BBs. Airsoft BBs are heavier than a regular BB, so they deliver more force. All kinds of different variables apply.



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Flyerfye: If I came across as "Don't do this or you're STUPID", I am very sorry, that isn't what I meant at all. This was a matter of "If you do this, you could get hurt"

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Sangheli811: Rondo or Mud is much stronger than either of the other two. I am not surprised at all that your piece didn't break. Again, this test was showing the damage to FIBERGLASSED ARMOR ONLY. And thanks for being so straight forward about it, I admire that about people.

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ImaGonnaGetYou: I don't think these topics are pointless at all. Not everyone has the skill/funds to own a war sport proof suit/piece. And this was 2 layers of glass and 1 of resin, not only 1 fiberglass.







Again, thanks for all the input, keep it up!

 

[Flyerfye]

My comment was not directed at you, but at a general attitude that seems to be present in quite a few members around here. I'm glad you did these tests, and I'm EXTRA happy you're approaching this in such a thoughtful manner. We could use a lot more testing like this. I'd eventually like to see some controlled material tests, like just flat pieces with just resin, 1 layer fiberglass, 2 layers, rondo, smoothcast, etc, just to show the effects on the materials in ideal condition. Unfortunately the weather sucks here so I can't do it myself right now.

 

[Sangheili811]

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Sangheli811: Rondo or Mud is much stronger than either of the other two. I am not surprised at all that your piece didn't break. Again, this test was showing the damage to FIBERGLASSED ARMOR ONLY. And thanks for being so straight forward about it, I admire that about people.

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It's cool, man, I thought you were referring to all pep armor. I just don't want to start a flame war. People should have fun on their hobby forums, not waste each other :cool.

 

[Azzarth]

I agree completely Sangheli. And its Flyerfye,I just wanted to get that across. And yeah, bare material tests are a great idea.