This Is Mind Blowing!

[Bloodl3tt3r]

You must've missed my point with this. The extradimensional aspect that I was referring to was not the existence of alternate universes based on string theory, it was the existence of alternate universes as a conceptualization of whatever dimension that the mental plain exists on. We as humans exist in 4 dimensions as well as a few others that do not have any correlation with the physical world save that we can take the ideas that we come up with and bring them into the 4 dimensional world.
I was under the impression that dark matter existed only within the confines of empty space. That is to say that it does exist as a cobweb structure throughout the known universe but that it only exists outside of planetary bodies throughout the vast empty spaces that are between say planets and stars. Correct me if I'm wrong but I've never seen anything that lends to the belief that it exists on our world, if it did then it would have a tendency to f*ck with us quite a bit right?

Perhaps it's existent in greater quantities in empty space, but it's everywhere... I think it was proven that dark matter isn't evenly distributed throughout the universe, so maybe we're in one of the empty/less dark-matter-filled spots.

 

[Odessa 086]

From what I know, the dark matter envelops the limits of the visible universe. There haven't been separate patches of it discovered throughout the galaxy yet. The methods of observing the universe have only discovered those at the very limit of what we can see, none closer. Also, there is no such thing as completely empty space. Even in the farthest parts of the universe, you would still find stray atoms of hydrogen and other elements. Perfect vacuum is still a theory. "Perfect vacuum is an ideal state that cannot be obtained in a laboratory, nor can it be found in outer space."

 

[Bloodl3tt3r]

From what I know, the dark matter envelops the limits of the visible universe. There haven't been separate patches of it discovered throughout the galaxy yet. The methods of observing the universe have only discovered those at the very limit of what we can see, none closer.

So there aren't say, dark matter coalescing into masses like planets and suns and such? Doesn't theory say that's possible?

 

[Odessa 086]

Celestial bodies out of fused dark matter? No, that's more of a theory than even gravastar or an eternally collapsing object. They all belong to highly theoretical, exotic speculations, with less logical basis than others. I was considering putting this into my paper as well, but I had to stick with more realistic theories. I'm quite fond of this theory, though, but that doesn't mean I think it's any more plausible...

 

[Bloodl3tt3r]

Celestial bodies out of fused dark matter? No, that's more of a theory than even gravastar or an eternally collapsing object. They all belong to highly theoretical, exotic speculations, with less logical basis than others. I was considering putting this into my paper as well, but I had to stick with more realistic theories. I'm quite fond of this theory, though, but that doesn't mean I think it's any more plausible...

I was just wondering, lol. But the general consensus right now is that dark matter only affects "real" matter gravitationally, right?

 

[Odessa 086]

I'm not sure what you mean by "real" matter. Everything is real matter. Except perhaps anti-matter, but that's also highly speculative...Dark matter does display gravitational anomalies but these could be attributed to vast amounts of dead stars or black holes that seem to inhabit places near the dark matter. There is, in fact, a trail of white dwarfs in Milky Way that belongs to the group of dead stars trailing off the dark matter. I'm not saying this dark matter is made of dead stars and black holes, but it may contain them, which might account for gravitational anomalies.

 

[Bloodl3tt3r]

I'm not sure what you mean by "real" matter. Everything is real matter. Except perhaps anti-matter, but that's also highly speculative...Dark matter does display gravitational anomalies but these could be attributes to vast amounts of dead stars or black holes that seem to inhabit places near the dark matter. There is, in fact, a trail of white dwarfs in Milky Way that belongs to the group of dead stars trailing off the dark matter. I'm not saying this dark matter is made of dead stars and black holes, but it may contain them, which might account for gravitational anomalies.

Well, I put "real" in quotes for that specific reason, what I meant was the matter that we can see and physically interact with, you know, the matter that my couch and such are made out of as opposed to dark matter, which supposedly only makes itself known gravitationally...


Also, couldn't the fact that dead stars and black holes seem to congregate near these place near dark matter point to the fact that the dark matter is the reason for their congregation at those points? If dark matter affects things gravitationally, perhaps its what pulls those bodies towards that patch of space?

Except, of course, black holes have their massive gravitational pulls too, so maybe the effect of dark matter isn't really significant compared to that.



Also... is it possible that dark matter = gravitons (theoretical particle that supposedly is what creates gravity, for those who don't know)?

 

[BFDesigns]

From what I'm gathering it seems that dark matter is more of a gravimetric field phenomena than an actual state of matter. That's why I never paid much attention to it because it can't really be manipulated as all other forms can, it just changes the gravity of all other matter within the universe like what Bloodl3tt3r said. Would this then be the 5th state of matter?

Also, you know how if you divide by zero you get a quantum singularity that destroys the universe, right? What if you were to divide an imaginary number (I hate math, why do these so called imaginary numbers even exist. Just for paradox's sake I guess.) by zero, do you get a white hole? just a thought.

 

[Bloodl3tt3r]

From what I'm gathering it seems that dark matter is more of a gravimetric field phenomena than an actual state of matter. That's why I never paid much attention to it because it can't really be manipulated as all other forms can, it just changes the gravity of all other matter within the universe like what Bloodl3tt3r said. Would this then be the 5th state of matter?

Also, you know how if you divide by zero you get a quantum singularity that destroys the universe, right? What if you were to divide an imaginary number (I hate math, why do these so called imaginary numbers even exist. Just for paradox's sake I guess.) by zero, do you get a white hole? just a thought.

As far as I know, there were five states of matter already... the usual solid, liquid, gas, plasma, and then a supercritical fluid?

Correct me if I'm wrong. I usually am.

 

[Odessa 086]

Well, I put "real" in quotes for that specific reason, what I meant was the matter that we can see and physically interact with, you know, the matter that my couch and such are made out of as opposed to dark matter, which supposedly only makes itself known gravitationally...


Also, couldn't the fact that dead stars and black holes seem to congregate near these place near dark matter point to the fact that the dark matter is the reason for their congregation at those points? If dark matter affects things gravitationally, perhaps its what pulls those bodies towards that patch of space?

Except, of course, black holes have their massive gravitational pulls too, so maybe the effect of dark matter isn't really significant compared to that.



Also... is it possible that dark matter = gravitons (theoretical particle that supposedly is what creates gravity, for those who don't know)?

The dark matter might be the reason for a mass of gravitationally heavy objects congregating near it, but then again, it may be the other way around, it may be that the dark matter is affected by the gravity pull of dead stars and black holes. We can't know this for sure yet, but yeah, the correlation exists.

From what science can tell us so far, the gravitational influence of the dark matter isn't very high and it's not equal throughout the patches, that's why they refer to this influence as gravitational anomalies.

As for dark matter being composed of gravitons...again, I'm leaning in that direction myself, but only if some evidence could be brought that would testify to dark matter's gravitational anomalies being more than just anomalies and more strong that the pull of the black holes, because if it was less, we could attribute gravitons to black holes, which we can't.

As for states of matter, there are 11(?) states, plus several theoretical ones...these 11 are divided into classic (solid, fluid, gas), low temperature, normal temperature and high energy. I think supercritical fluid is string net fluid (but not sure), in which case it's one of those theoretical states. Plasma (2 types of it) is high energy state.

Now, excuse me while I go to sleep, it's far too late for me to be doing this, heh

 

[Bloodl3tt3r]

The dark matter might be the reason for a mass of gravitationally heavy objects congregating near it, but then again, it may be the other way around, it may be that the dark matter is affected by the gravity pull of dead stars and black holes. We can't know this for sure yet, but yeah, the correlation exists.

From what science can tell us so far, the gravitational influence of the dark matter isn't very high and it's not equal throughout the patches, that's why they refer to this influence as gravitational anomalies.

As for dark matter being composed of gravitons...again, I'm leaning in that direction myself, but only if some evidence could be brought that would testify to dark matter's gravitational anomalies being more than just anomalies and more strong that the pull of the black holes, because if it was less, we could attribute gravitons to black holes, which we can't.

I'm just drawing some similarities between the supposed theory of what dark matter is and the theory of gravitons... as far as I can tell, both are invisible types of matter which affect the universe gravitationally... whether dark matter is the actual cause of gravity or not is something else entirely, though.


You're making me think too much. Although, I've probably learned more from reading this thread than a whole sem of taking Astronomy in HS, that class was useless.

 

[Odessa 086]

Oh yeah, I do agree with you that there are a lot of similarities between those two theories but we (as in humanity) simply don't know enough, not having the appropriate technology at our disposal, to make anything certain yet. Makes me very jealous of the future generations who will witness so many new things being discovered.

 

[Bloodl3tt3r]

Oh yeah, I do agree with you that there are a lot of similarities between those two theories but we (as in humanity) simply don't know enough, not having the appropriate technology at our disposal, to make anything certain yet. Makes me very jealous of the future generations who will witness so many new things being discovered.

Yeah, lucky bastards. What I would give to see another planet.

 

[Odessa 086]

Yeah...and it gets worse every time I see Star Trek on tv Which is hard on me because I'm a Trekkie

 

[Bloodl3tt3r]

Yeah...and it gets worse every time I see Star Trek on tv Which is hard on me because I'm a Trekkie

Haha... every time I read a Star Wars EU book, I immediately start thinking in this mindset.


Oh yeah, there was one book where a hyperspace lane was closed off due to a "dark matter bubble" that created a gravitational pull which dumped the ships out of hyperspace. It's quite amusing to me now after having talked about the subject on a Halo costuming forum.

 

[Odessa 086]

If hyperspace is anything like warp conduits, even an asteroid astray inside would dump the ships at high speed out. That seems to be the general idea around the theory of wormholes...but who knows.

I enjoy these occasional threads where I can find you to discuss science matters, haha
But I'm all geeked-out at this hour so...3.50am means bed for me.

 

[Bloodl3tt3r]

If hyperspace is anything like warp conduits, even an asteroid astray inside would dump the ships at high speed out. That seems to be the general idea around the theory of wormholes...but who knows.

I enjoy these occasional threads where I can find you to discuss science matters, haha
But I'm all geeked-out at this hour so...3.50am means bed for me.

Well, the Star Wars version of hyperspace is, I believe, affected by gravity in realspace. If you jump too close to a planet, you end up crashing into it. Unlike slipspace, where apparently you can revert in the middle of a sun and not know you were about to until you find yourself being used as fuel for nuclear fusion.

 

[BFDesigns]

Well, the Star Wars version of hyperspace is, I believe, affected by gravity in realspace. If you jump too close to a planet, you end up crashing into it. Unlike slipspace, where apparently you can revert in the middle of a sun and not know you were about to until you find yourself being used as fuel for nuclear fusion.

True that, Star Wars usually had some kind of on board computer that would have to do all kinds of calculations before it jumped to avoid gravitational troubles in flight. I remember Han Solo telling Luke to STFU so he could do some figuring in his head about it. They could also move about the ship while they were in Hyperspace transit.

If you ever saw the Lost in Space movie though it seems that hyperspace is not affected by gravity (based on the movie) I'm not entirely sure if this is or isn't slipspace (as they called it Hyperspace) but they made the jump to avoid being cooked by a star. But here's the thing, they jumped right through the middle of the star and based on whatever theoretical physics that they used for the movie, this version of hyperspace seemed to suspend any and all forms of normal space during transit making it possible to jump through the middle of a star, but also suspending everyone on board the ship in mid activity. When the ship popped out on the other end of the conduit they were once again returned to normal space, and were able to resume what they were doing.

I just hope that we can get the Hitchhiker's Guide technology up to speed. An Infinite Improbability Drive would be exactly what we as the human race would need to colonize space very quickly. And the next step up, if I remember correctly, is the Italian Bistro Drive (where you really get improbable stuff )!

 

[Bloodl3tt3r]

True that, Star Wars usually had some kind of on board computer that would have to do all kinds of calculations before it jumped to avoid gravitational troubles in flight. I remember Han Solo telling Luke to STFU so he could do some figuring in his head about it. They could also move about the ship while they were in Hyperspace transit.

If you ever saw the Lost in Space movie though it seems that hyperspace is not affected by gravity (based on the movie) I'm not entirely sure if this is or isn't slipspace (as they called it Hyperspace) but they made the jump to avoid being cooked by a star. But here's the thing, they jumped right through the middle of the star and based on whatever theoretical physics that they used for the movie, this version of hyperspace seemed to suspend any and all forms of normal space during transit making it possible to jump through the middle of a star, but also suspending everyone on board the ship in mid activity. When the ship popped out on the other end of the conduit they were once again returned to normal space, and were able to resume what they were doing.

I just hope that we can get the Hitchhiker's Guide technology up to speed. An Infinite Improbability Drive would be exactly what we as the human race would need to colonize space very quickly. And the next step up, if I remember correctly, is the Italian Bistro Drive (where you really get improbable stuff )!

Or, you know, we can just go with the Ender's Game version of interstellar travel, where we just achieve regular lightspeed in keeping with Einstein's thing about nothing goes faster than light... relativity means ship time is a lot shorter than "real time".


Actually, that's another thing I want to bring up. In the newest book from that series, the way they achieve lightspeed is weird. It's described as a field that (and the rest of this is described based on how I understood it) messes with the strong force, causing the molecules to be propelled away from the ship in the opposite direction at around lightspeed, which moves the ship forward... I have to read the book again to get the exact quote.

Anyways, is that theoretically possible?

 

[BFDesigns]

Or, you know, we can just go with the Ender's Game version of interstellar travel, where we just achieve regular lightspeed in keeping with Einstein's thing about nothing goes faster than light... relativity means ship time is a lot shorter than "real time".
Actually, that's another thing I want to bring up. In the newest book from that series, the way they achieve lightspeed is weird. It's described as a field that (and the rest of this is described based on how I understood it) messes with the strong force, causing the molecules to be propelled away from the ship in the opposite direction at around lightspeed, which moves the ship forward... I have to read the book again to get the exact quote.

Anyways, is that theoretically possible?

Sounds like you're talking about the warp drive theory that I was just reading. It involves shrinking the fabric of space time in front of a ship and expanding it behind. Basically creating a bubble around the ship being propelled at an expansion rate that is likened to the rate of expansion just after the big bang. There was something about this theory however that stated that the 11th dimension would have to be manipulated in order for this expansion/contraction theory to work, but it would allow for Faster Than Light travel. The interesting thing is that a light particle traveling alongside the ship would be moving at the same rate of travel as the ship but light rays behind the ship would be left far behind successfully allowing the ship to arrive at its destination faster than a light ray. The thing is that we cannot as of now manipulate the 11th dimension in order to get this yet - but we're hoping for a piece of alien technology to fall out of the sky (like Roswell) so that we can reverse engineer or even copy the technology and pull this off!

The other thing that you could be talking about is Ion Drive, NASA is currently using it to propel deep space probes out into the far reaches of the galaxy. The problem with the current models is that they are very slow and they have to build up speed exponentially in order to achieve any type of movement at all.

Actually, we've had this technology since the early 20th century and it has been used during the cold war as Ballistic Missile stabilizers as they seem to work very well in space.

Basically the engine involves the electromagnetic or electrostatic acceleration of atoms out of the back of the thruster. And just as all other forms of propulsion work, stuff coming out the back makes forward motion. The problem is in maintaining the lifespan to power ratio. A Xenon thruster is the best because it only takes about as much energy as a few car batteries and can last for a very long time on an adequate power source. Problem with a Xenon thruster is that it takes about 4 days to go from 0 to 60 (about the same time it take a VW Microbus to do the same thing). The most recent successful mission was the Japanese Hayabusa probe that made it to its target asteroid to collect data off of it. There was also the Smart 1 Probe (crashed into the moon on purpose) that made the trip to the moon in 3 years. To give you a frame of reference, the Apollo missions made the trip to the moon in 3-1/2 to 4 days on conventional fuel alone.