Happy Cosmos day 405th!

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I can't disagree with pretty much anything you've said there, Zaff.
Think you've basically nailed exactly what science is, just our best understanding at 'present'.
The revolutions of understanding my generation(born in 91) have seen have been staggering, and I'm sure that by the time I die the whole world of our understanding will look vastly different! I look forward too it!

My dislike of deities whose disciples teachings restrict learning isn't based on what you've said, it's based on the idea that those who try to explore the cosmos through science should be stopped or in the worse cases, tortured and killed.
It was touched on in the TV show, Giordano Bruno in the 1600th century and how various religious institutions completely disallowed any form of cosmological understanding past that which is taught in their specific scriptures resulting in book burnings and death.
Thankfully, torture and inquisition isn't really a thing these days and as you know many religious groups now freely explore the universe as a means to know their god(s) just that little bit better.
I think that's bloody awesome, holding both belief and curiosity.

Anyway, just finished my second watch of the Episode that aired yesterday, really think it'll be a great way for kids to get into science! The future looks bright :D
 
wait what I thought nat. go was reshowing the frist episode yesterday... and the new one's where coming out next Sunday.
 
I can't disagree with pretty much anything you've said there, Zaff.
Think you've basically nailed exactly what science is, just our best understanding at 'present'.
The revolutions of understanding my generation(born in 91) have seen have been staggering, and I'm sure that by the time I die the whole world of our understanding will look vastly different! I look forward too it!

My dislike of deities whose disciples teachings restrict learning isn't based on what you've said, it's based on the idea that those who try to explore the cosmos through science should be stopped or in the worse cases, tortured and killed.
It was touched on in the TV show, Giordano Bruno in the 1600th century and how various religious institutions completely disallowed any form of cosmological understanding past that which is taught in their specific scriptures resulting in book burnings and death.
Thankfully, torture and inquisition isn't really a thing these days and as you know many religious groups now freely explore the universe as a means to know their god(s) just that little bit better.
I think that's bloody awesome, holding both belief and curiosity.

Anyway, just finished my second watch of the Episode that aired yesterday, really think it'll be a great way for kids to get into science! The future looks bright :D

The problem comes when people put all of their faith and trust in what we think is true right now rather than accepting that what science is saying right now will likely change entirely, so to base one's entire perception of reality on what is essentially a lie waiting to be proven as such seems, well, rather foolhardy doesn't it?

I'm just taking a stab in the dark here, but your problem is not so much with the deities as it is with the disciples. That, very often, is the root of the problem. The inquisitions, the witch hunts, what we have here are people doing what they want to do to further their own desires, and using God as an excuse to ensnare and deceive the masses. Likewise people use God as an excuse to blind the masses so that they can be controlled. Again, this is not God's doing, nor even God's will, it is man manipulating others by any means necessary. Religion, politics, money, power, to certain people these are just tools to control others.

To me, exploring the cosmos is one of the most enlightening ways to see with our own eyes the pure majesty and enormity of God's creation. That film, "Indescribable" that was mentioned earlier is one I would again highly recommend if you want to see the harmony of Christian faith and cosmological science.
 
I agree with Zaff. On the fact that talking about the "Evolution" theory is allowed but talk about Creation and the door is shut in your face. Serin, you seem to misunderstand my view on this. I think that studies in science are awesome. And that we should just agree to disagree because neither one of us is going to make the other change their mind.
 
Good plan, Phil :)

I'll endeavour to watch that doco, Zaff, always up for a new perspective(well, within reason).
My final word on this is probably just that indeed science does evolve and change as our understanding changes, though we certainly do know enough about things like quantum mechanics to take that understanding and build our entire digital society on it.
So there is at the very least that knowledge is useful :p
After all, it's not anything more than a method for investigating the universe in the best way we know.

Peace out boys and girls :)
 
I thought we weren't going to go down this road guys. like I said we all have point's from faith to studying to just trusting in you gut. (I'm not that big on the whole god thing, do believe in something not sure what, it doesn't have a idol but it does have a name, and yes I've got it on my armor.)

now who here thinks it looked kind of odd that the opening show the whole universe was in an eye, which if you want to say it was god's eye go ahead.
 
The "Big Bang" is scientifically impossible, as before it there was nothing, and fundamental scientific law states that for something to happen, there must be at least two elements (matter, energy, etc.) that react to one another to make whatever happens, well, happen.

This is only given to our current understanding of physics. Remember, only a few hundred years ago people would have been ridiculed for suggesting that man might be able to fly, and yet here we are today with aircraft that can exceed the sound barrier many times over - and this is before we've gone over the fact that we've put men into space, let alone on other celestial bodies.

I don't mean to be bigoted at all when I say this, however: the genius behind the scientific principle is that if we find out that we're wrong, we change our way of thinking to adapt rather than stubbornly reject our new findings. One day we may understand how the universe came into being - right now we can settle for 'we don't know because we don't have the understanding' and leave it at that.
 
Actually, point of interest, the scientific consensus at this present time is that some form of big bang-ish event did take place, we can see evidence of it in the cosmic microwave background radiation out there, and also due to the fact that the universe is indeed expanding(Hubbles constant) along with a few other telltail signposts.
What the consensus isn't sure of is what caused it in the first place.
Notable theories are Brane cosmology(also explains why gravity is weak), and a recent theory that suggests the big bang was due to the collapse of a '4th dimensional black hole'

As with most cosmological theorem, there are those who present the evidence differently.

Now, before anyone goes off on a tangent... These are scientific theories with valid evidence that points in their direction, so unless anyone here can present actual science to back up any claims, I really don't want to see it.
This is after all a discussion on science, not on theology or philosophy.

Now, back to Cosmos!
Anyone else think the graphical CGI was a bit meh? Not the cartoony parts but more the stellar bits and pieces.
I guess I shouldn't rank all CGI by Spartan Ops standards....
 
Anyone else think the graphical CGI was a bit meh? Not the cartoony parts but more the stellar bits and pieces.
I guess I shouldn't rank all CGI by Spartan Ops standards....

I'd agree that the cgi was a little meh, especially the parts where Tyson was talking in the ship. However, I did think the animations of the planets and other solar bodies were decent; then again I grew up with the space cgi in Space Above and Beyond. (great show, but that animation, blech). On another note though kudos to everyone for keeping the scientific, religious and philosophical conversation civil. It's not often you see that accomplished online; just more proof that the 405th, is the friendliest forum ever.
 
Actually, point of interest, the scientific consensus at this present time is that some form of big bang-ish event did take place, we can see evidence of it in the cosmic microwave background radiation out there, and also due to the fact that the universe is indeed expanding(Hubbles constant) along with a few other telltail signposts.
What the consensus isn't sure of is what caused it in the first place.

The problem I have with that is: if we are truly honest with ourselves, we know nothing of the actual range, girth, volume, diameter, circumference, or by any other term the size of the universe in it's entirety. "Hubble's' Law" speaks of the observable universe, but as we were not able to observe the universe beyond our sky until just recently (relatively speaking regardless of "old Earth" or "young Earth" perspective), well quite frankly for all we know what we are now observing could be the result of an event that happened within the time period of human history that could very well have been alluded to and subsequently dismissed as "fairy tales" at a later date (much as many scientists originally dismissed tales of dragons as pure fantasy and yet now are beginning to question if these tales are evidence that dinosaurs and man did indeed have a period in time in which both existed and came in contact with each other). How then do we claim that it is expanding? How do we say that what we find at the edge of the "known" universes hasn't always been there? The Earth is 93 million miles from the sun (92,956,050 miles, to be more precise), it has been for as long as we have been able to measure that distance, and countless calculations have concluded that if our planet were to stray just a little bit closer in it's orbit, we'd disintegrate, and just a little bit farther away, we'd freeze solid. We have not seen, much less been to, the edge of the universe to see that it is "expanding," and within our own tiny proverbial corner of the universe everything remains very much the same as it has always been as far as distance relative to each other. How then do we say we "know" that a "Big Bang"-like explosion had to have happened and claim an expanding universe which we cannot prove is the evidence of it? Even looking at Hubble's Law, it describes a "wave" or a "wake" as one might describe the residual force after a bomb goes off, or the "aftershock" following a seismic event, but until we 1) know for certain the origin, 2) know for certain the nature, and 3) breach the leading edge and thus fully identify the phenomenon in it's entirety, well for all we know it could have nothing at all to do with a "big bang" of any kind.

I am not trying to push any religion or philosophy, but rather I am merely posing questions and perspectives that I feel any open-minded individual should take into careful consideration before drawing any conclusions. It's all very fascinating stuff, to be sure, but it is important not to just rush in and accept something as truth just because somebody seems to know what they're talking about. More and more I've been noticing that science is far more theory and not enough actual observable proof. More and more I've been seeing "simulations" rather than actual tests, and quite frankly simulations are, in my opinion, worthless for all practical reasons, as they are set up to react according to what we believe should happen or what we think might happen or at times merely what we want to happen in order to validate our theory, all of which can vary drastically from what would actually happen (not to mention the simple fact that even the most minute of programming and/or coding errors could throw the whole thing completely out of whack).
 
Even looking at Hubble's Law, it describes a "wave" or a "wake" as one might describe the residual force after a bomb goes off, or the "aftershock" following a seismic event, but until we... breach the leading edge and thus fully identify the phenomenon in it's entirety, well for all we know it could have nothing at all to do with a "big bang" of any kind.

Herein lies the issue with the Big Bang theory.

Current theory states that, if indeed the Big Bang actually occurred, the universe is expanding at light speed (or, at least, extremely close to said velocity) in all directions. In order to detect the 'leading edge' of that explosion, you'd need to travel at faster-than-light speeds, or have equipment that can operate at faster-than-light speeds. As far as I'm aware, there are efforts underway to bend the laws of physics and make FTL travel possible (look up 'Alcubierre Drive), but even so, the sheer amount of time it would take for any instrumentation to catch up to, arrive at, and then surpass that leading edge (not to mention relaying said data back), would make the venture impossible.

As I said before, scientific theory merely supports a theory given available data at the time. When a more viable theory comes along that can be tried and tested, it's passed and accepted as the new standard.

Oh, and as far as your 'dinosaur and man' theory comes along - I have a degree in archaeology, and believe me, there's very little chance. Even given the fact that the fossil records don't match up, the strata data would never match up, nor would carbon dating hold up any evidence to support the theory. The earliest proto-human fossils known date back only several million years, while dinosaurs roamed the Earth up to 65 million years ago - there's a very substantial fossil record gap between the disappearance of one set of species, and the emergence of another.
 
okay this is getting better and better, should we talk more on FTL drive's or the math needed to do it.
 
Oh Oh!! I know things about Alcubierre's warp metric!
So, basically a dude named Miguel Alcubierre in the early 90's posited a theory for warping space, quite exactly the same way Star Trek's warp drive works.
He was inspired as a kid by TOS, so he just did it.... HOW COOL IS THAT!
The idea is that if one compresses spacetime in front of a ship and expands it behind the ship one could theoretically ride that "wave" without technically breaking any physical laws.
Now, the problem is power, specifically the energy needed to achieve such a feat.
Originally it was thought that you'd basically need infinite energy, or at the least the energy output of say a whole galaxy worth of stars..... Or as the hope now is that some form of 'exotic matter' could be discovered to provide a negative density.

Back in 2012 it was proposed that the warp bubbles geometric shape be altered and oscillated thus massively reducing the required energy.
There are of course several problems immediately evident, such as the ejection of gathered particles when one decelerates, aka extreme death to whatever is in front of the craft upon exit of warp.

As they say, Esoteric idea's require esoteric solutions.
 
okay this is getting better and better, should we talk more on FTL drive's or the math needed to do it.

that is really an interesting thing to think about. {side note- i am not a math or science master or even extremely learned on the material so these are really just my thoughts or ideas on the subject}

As far as i know current FTL or near FTL test have been slightly based on the "star trek warp drive" or a theory that sits very close to my understanding of the idea. The idea is to both expand and contract the space around an object by creating a bubble (warp field or subspace bubble - for lack of a better term)this bubble would be in regular space time which theoretically avoids the issues of time dilation at near light speeds. the task then becomes shrinking space within the first (i believe it is something like 3-10 feet in front of the bubble and re-expanding it behind the bubble (this is what i gathered from the idea - so don't think this is the exact theory) this would allow the ship to travel at, near, or even past Light speeds.

my two other theories come from the Star Wars and Stargate universes. the theory in Star Wars (and is very similar in Stargate) it that a exact straight line path from point "a" to point "b" needs to first be known, second a device capable of transferring an object into "slip-space or subspace" (this also would create a bubble of sorts)which as I understand it is simply a highly condensed version of normal space (I am unsure if there have ever been real tests to "find" subspace) in order to enter subspace a ship needs to reach a specific speed (a speed at which transfer into subspace is possible) this is where the two fictions differ. for Star Wars a ship then flies the entire distance without essentially any connection to the outside world; Stargate on the other had suggests that subspace is navigable and a ships course can be changed and can be allowed to enter and exit subspace at any point along the journey.

Now i realize that the last bit was entirely from a fiction but if you look back at especially the star trek series, a piece of "impossible" technology appears and within a period of 20 years (excluding warp drive and of course spaceships) that same piece of technology manifests itself.

so that is just some food for thought.
 
More and more I've been seeing "simulations" rather than actual tests, and quite frankly simulations are, in my opinion, worthless for all practical reasons, as they are set up to react according to what we believe should happen or what we think might happen or at times merely what we want to happen in order to validate our theory, all of which can vary drastically from what would actually happen (not to mention the simple fact that even the most minute of programming and/or coding errors could throw the whole thing completely out of whack).

Yeah' I'm getting really tired of my high school having us do online simulations for just about everything now, hopefully college will be different (what's forensic science without getting hands on every once in a while?)

The idea is that if one compresses spacetime in front of a ship and expands it behind the ship one could theoretically ride that "wave" without technically breaking any physical laws.
Now, the problem is power, specifically the energy needed to achieve such a feat.
Originally it was thought that you'd basically need infinite energy, or at the least the energy output of say a whole galaxy worth of stars..... Or as the hope now is that some form of 'exotic matter' could be discovered to provide a negative density.

Back in 2012 it was proposed that the warp bubbles geometric shape be altered and oscillated thus massively reducing the required energy.
There are of course several problems immediately evident, such as the ejection of gathered particles when one decelerates, aka extreme death to whatever is in front of the craft upon exit of warp.

We need to get Shaw-Fujikawa on this stat :D. As for the power source being 'exotic', are we talking about something like antimatter? I'd heard of it being potentially used as fuel if we ever find an efficient way to make it (at $25 billion/gram right now, it may be awhile), and we can find a way to focus the massive energy released from a matter and antimatter reaction (again hopefully the future will bring more technological advances). Or is there something else out there that's more exotic than antimatter that I haven't heard of yet?
 
Unfortunately no, S323, antimatter is one thing Trek did get wrong.
Exotic in this case means something that doesn't quite conform to the known laws of physics, whereas antimatter is simply the opposite of whichever matter.
Physicists currently aren't aware of any such exotic matters existence so the search continues!

NASA is currently working on an experiment to prove Alcubierre's warp metric, it involves an interferometer that can detect spacial distortions by measuring the length of a rod compared to a set of identical rods when the warp metric is applied.

Though it's sobering that the best estimates for this idea put it's achievement long after most of us are quite dead.
 
Arcanine said:
Herein lies the issue with the Big Bang theory.

Current theory states that, if indeed the Big Bang actually occurred, the universe is expanding at light speed (or, at least, extremely close to said velocity) in all directions. In order to detect the 'leading edge' of that explosion, you'd need to travel at faster-than-light speeds, or have equipment that can operate at faster-than-light speeds. As far as I'm aware, there are efforts underway to bend the laws of physics and make FTL travel possible (look up 'Alcubierre Drive), but even so, the sheer amount of time it would take for any instrumentation to catch up to, arrive at, and then surpass that leading edge (not to mention relaying said data back), would make the venture impossible.

As I said before, scientific theory merely supports a theory given available data at the time. When a more viable theory comes along that can be tried and tested, it's passed and accepted as the new standard.

Oh, and as far as your 'dinosaur and man' theory comes along - I have a degree in archaeology, and believe me, there's very little chance. Even given the fact that the fossil records don't match up, the strata data would never match up, nor would carbon dating hold up any evidence to support the theory. The earliest proto-human fossils known date back only several million years, while dinosaurs roamed the Earth up to 65 million years ago - there's a very substantial fossil record gap between the disappearance of one set of species, and the emergence of another.

So it can't be proven true, or untrue, if I get the basic principle of what you're saying there. That presents a real problem then when these theories are presented, taught, and indoctrinated into the minds of the next generation as unquestionable fact and those who question or deny it are subsequently shunned as "ignorant." That, to me, is not science. Science should be based upon that which we can prove not what we simply envision as a possibility.

Something I am curious about with the whole "man and dinosaur never shared the world" theory, how then would the men who wrote the Bible several thousand years ago be able to describe, in detail, creatures they refer to as "leviathans," "dragons," "behemoths," or simply "great beasts?" Those actually study these accounts found them to be describing what could only be dinosaurs. Before archaeology, before skeletal reconstruction, before simulated motion and "prehistoric study," these people described what modern scientists only felt comfortable stating after years of studying bone structure and assumed musculature.

But now we're into another problem of "theoretical" science vs. reality when it comes to things like radioactive dating. There's an analogy that goes like this: you walk into a room that has a lit candle in it, and and an opening beneath it so the melted wax can drain away. You have a ruler, a calculator, a pen and paper, and a stopwatch. You can measure the rate at which the candle is burning, you can measure how much of the candle is left, and thus you can calculate how long (barring any variables) how long it will take for the candle to burn itself down to nothing. But here's where reality steps in: you have no idea what happened in that room before you entered. You have no idea if the candle's rate of burn was slowed or accelerated at any point. But most importantly, you cannot determine how tall the candle was to begin with. Radioactive dating can measure how much a specimen has left, and can measure how long it takes for what's let to dissipate completely, but because it was never "new" to us, we can't tell how much it had to begin with. Whether the Earth is 6,000 years old, or 72 billion years old, the simple fact is there is not a single person alive in all the world who was there at the beginning and could tell you how much of any chemical was in anything when it was first formed. Beyond that, as I'm sure you would agree, there are no dinosaurs around today, nor even any specimens of the fauna or flora of that time, thus we can't, in all honesty, say that we know how much carbon, or nitrogen, or any other element ANY of them contained when first they were formed. Speaking strictly in terms of science and scientific fact, radioactive dating data does not qualify.

So then you fall back on the strata, where these fossils were found in the rock layers. Now assume for a moment that the Biblical flood did, indeed, happen (countless cultures other than the Jews and Hebrews refer to a great and cataclysmic flood, so it seems safe to assume that it did indeed happen). As the Bible and other texts describe it, it was not merely rain falling from the sky ,but the Earth itself being torn open and pouring forth water from the depths. Put that all together and there's one simple conclusion to draw: total and absolute upheaval across the globe. All the scientific theories to date can't explain why there are marine life fossils being found in land-locked plateaus and even up in the mountains, certainly they couldn't have crawled up there. But if the entire world was flooded as the Bible states then those mountains and plateaus were under water for a significant amount of time, and when the flood waters rapidly receded, well it most certainly is entirely likely that not only would marine life be stranded, but the bodies of the creatures that were caught and drowned by the flood would likewise be scattered.

Among other resources, I would suggest taking a look into the "Answers in Genesis" website, as you just might find answers and in better detail and with better references than I have been able to provide on my own.
 
Unfortunately no, S323, antimatter is one thing Trek did get wrong.
Exotic in this case means something that doesn't quite conform to the known laws of physics, whereas antimatter is simply the opposite of whichever matter.
Physicists currently aren't aware of any such exotic matters existence so the search continues!

Though it's sobering that the best estimates for this idea put it's achievement long after most of us are quite dead.

Alright glad that was clarified. And yeah that is a pretty sobering idea, here's to hoping we'll still get to see some equally astounding technological advances in our lifetimes.

All the scientific theories to date can't explain why there are marine life fossils being found in land-locked plateaus and even up in the mountains, certainly they couldn't have crawled up there. But if the entire world was flooded as the Bible states then those mountains and plateaus were under water for a significant amount of time, and when the flood waters rapidly receded, well it most certainly is entirely likely that not only would marine life be stranded, but the bodies of the creatures that were caught and drowned by the flood would likewise be scattered.

Among other resources, I would suggest taking a look into the "Answers in Genesis" website, as you just might find answers and in better detail and with better references than I have been able to provide on my own.

I wouldn't be so quick to say no scientific theories can explain the aquatic fossils on the mountain, ie: plate tectonics shifting a once ocean to now mountain level. That said AIG has changed their Flood hypothesis I guess we can call it, to include plate tectonics as well the Flood, I believe they proposed that the fountains of the deep might have broke up the plates that are involve in tectonics.
 
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