Need A Good Nontoxic Hardener.

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Jason0

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I've just got my Mkvi helmet done, and I was wondering if anyone could tell me what would be a good ;nontoxic; material to use on the inside and outside of it. I've looked at the hot glue method, and also thought of maybe aqua resin on both inside and out. Just toss me some ideas. Thanks in advance.



-Jason
 
You won't have to worry about toxins once it's hardened, unless you plan to disassemble your helmet and try to eat it. If the toxicity of the material in liquid form is a concern, because you have kids around for example, Aqua Resin is probably one of your only choices. Pretty much everything else is highly toxic/dangerous in uncured form... polyurethane, silicone, epoxy, Bondo, MEKT (the primary hardener catalyst for most of these), latex (ammonia is the solvent in liquified latex),... they'll all pretty much kill you. Once they are hardened though, touching/licking/smelling them won't do anything to you, although eating them wouldn't be a good idea (who knows what happens to them in the presence of stomach acid, HCL+KCL+NaCL).
 
Awesomeness said:
You won't have to worry about toxins once it's hardened, unless you plan to disassemble your helmet and try to eat it. If the toxicity of the material in liquid form is a concern, because you have kids around for example, Aqua Resin is probably one of your only choices. Pretty much everything else is highly toxic/dangerous in uncured form... polyurethane, silicone, epoxy, Bondo, MEKT (the primary hardener catalyst for most of these), latex (ammonia is the solvent in liquified latex),... they'll all pretty much kill you. Once they are hardened though, touching/licking/smelling them won't do anything to you, although eating them wouldn't be a good idea (who knows what happens to them in the presence of stomach acid, HCL+KCL+NaCL).



Wow thats a thorough answer and its correct, you can use anything as long as you dont have any skin contact before it has hardened. Anything used by other members will be fine eg. bondo fiberglass resin, smooth-on products etc.
 
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Awesomeness said:
You won't have to worry about toxins once it's hardened, unless you plan to disassemble your helmet and try to eat it.



lol that line is funny. but seriously, dont eat it.:)
 
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Awesomeness said:
You won't have to worry about toxins once it's hardened, unless you plan to disassemble your helmet and try to eat it. If the toxicity of the material in liquid form is a concern, because you have kids around for example, Aqua Resin is probably one of your only choices. Pretty much everything else is highly toxic/dangerous in uncured form... polyurethane, silicone, epoxy, Bondo, MEKT (the primary hardener catalyst for most of these), latex (ammonia is the solvent in liquified latex),... they'll all pretty much kill you. Once they are hardened though, touching/licking/smelling them won't do anything to you, although eating them wouldn't be a good idea (who knows what happens to them in the presence of stomach acid, HCL+KCL+NaCL).

Ah, okay. Thanks for the quick and thorough reply. (Sits in corner eating polyurethane resin), ha this stuff isn't tox...(dies)
 
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Jason02 said:
Ah, okay. Thanks for the quick and thorough reply. (Sits in corner eating polyurethane resin), ha this stuff isn't tox...(dies)





It could.... but is it worth it?
 
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Nothing replaces the fiberglass. Your resin by itself is very brittle, like, ironically, thin peanut brittle. The fiberglass fibers are the actual load bearing material, and the resin just makes them rigid so that they don't flop around while trying to endure the load.



Here's sort of an odd analogy, but maybe it will help... imagine that you had a bucket of sand. Sand is very tough, but it's obviously flexible since you can mush it around. Now imagine that you had a garden hose, which is also flexible and won't hold any weight. If you packed the garden hose solid with sand though, you would have a hard tube, that would support weight and resist bending. It's not exactly like that with fiberglass and resin, but the idea is similar. The resin helps constrains the fiberglass strands so that they only take stress in the long dimension, along the strands.



You could use pretty much any absorbent material, with a similar effect, to different degrees. This is the effect people are trying to get when the resin the Pepakura paper model, to try to stiffen the paper enough to do other work. Normally, you would only substitute things like carbon fiber, kevlar fiber, spectre fiber, etc for fiberglass, if you actually intend it to be strong. Those materials are known to be extremely strong in a resined configuration.
 
Awesomeness said:
You could use pretty much any absorbent material, with a similar effect, to different degrees. This is the effect people are trying to get when the resin the Pepakura paper model, to try to stiffen the paper enough to do other work. Normally, you would only substitute things like carbon fiber, kevlar fiber, spectre fiber, etc for fiberglass, if you actually intend it to be strong. Those materials are known to be extremely strong in a resined configuration.



If I wanted to use one of those high-strength substitutes, like SpectraFiber, where would I purchase it in the same format as fiberglass? I've only found it being used in fishing line, fiber optics, and extremely expensive protective clothing.
 
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You could use polyurethene resins, they are toxic but you wont need fiberglass. So it's alot easier to work with, just pour it in.

The positive thing about this although toxic, it doesnt leave a smell, so if you work in a well ventilated area it wont leave your house stinking for a few days. Unlike polyester resin which will stink for a couple of days.
 
If you're looking for a safer alternative to the fiberglass portion I'd recommend trying out cheesecloth. I used it with epoxy resin and had great results. I was able to sit at a desk all day at work in my costume without any damage or warping.
 
Dancin_Fool said:
If you're looking for a safer alternative to the fiberglass portion I'd recommend trying out cheesecloth. I used it with epoxy resin and had great results. I was able to sit at a desk all day at work in my costume without any damage or warping.

Do you know if this could work with aqua resin? Also, using the method with the cheesecloth would I be able to store the costume for a while without warping it? Thanks again.



-Jason
 
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Why are you trying so hard to use non-toxic alternatives? Generally speaking, there are reasons that the toxic varieties are popular (usually because they work the best). You're planning to make edible armor aren't you? You sneaky devil.
 
Jason02 said:
Do you know if this could work with aqua resin? Also, using the method with the cheesecloth would I be able to store the costume for a while without warping it? Thanks again.



-Jason



I would imagine it would work with aqua resin, it works with elmers white glue as well, though not as strong. It's just something to soak up whatever you're using to harden your prop/costume and help add strength. I used a hockey bag to transport my Chief costume and it's been sitting in there since Halloween. I pulled a few pieces out a few weeks ago when I moved some stuff around to make sure it was still ok and everything was still as solid as when I finished it.





Awesomeness said:
Why are you trying so hard to use non-toxic alternatives? Generally speaking, there are reasons that the toxic varieties are popular (usually because they work the best). You're planning to make edible armor aren't you? You sneaky devil.



Could be for the same reason I looked into non-toxic alternatives. Living in an apartment there's no way to work with toxic materials without 'toxifying' the whole apartment.
 
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Awesomeness said:
Why are you trying so hard to use non-toxic alternatives? Generally speaking, there are reasons that the toxic varieties are popular (usually because they work the best). You're planning to make edible armor aren't you? You sneaky devil.

I have upper respiratory problems actually, and what is so wrong with making edible armor? :p
 
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Dancin_Fool said:
I would imagine it would work with aqua resin, it works with elmers white glue as well, though not as strong. It's just something to soak up whatever you're using to harden your prop/costume and help add strength. I used a hockey bag to transport my Chief costume and it's been sitting in there since Halloween. I pulled a few pieces out a few weeks ago when I moved some stuff around to make sure it was still ok and everything was still as solid as when I finished it.

Ah okay, I'll try it out and see how it goes, thanks. :D
 
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Jason02 said:
I have upper respiratory problems actually, and what is so wrong with making edible armor? :p



I would actually like to see someone make edible armor. :p



The Aqua Resin shouldn't have any long term stability issues. If it did, they would have a hard time marketing it since nobody would want to make something from it if it would just degrade and warp. I did some searching online and couldn't find anyone badmouthing its lifetime. What you will most likely experience is a lower quality of physical properties (e.g. it won't wet the fiberglass as well/thoroughly, it may be weaker or more brittle, it won't adhere as well or to as wide a range of base materials, etc.).



You can literally put anything in the resin to reinforce it, it's just a matter of how much reinforcement you get as a result. You could shred your sock and use it, if you wanted to. Fiberglass woven cloth, fiberglass mat, chopped fiberglass strands, and then all those things from other stranded materials like cloth, shredded twine, etc. The characteristics that you want to emphasize are materials with low elasticity, that will be wetted by the resin well. So you don't want to use a very tightly woven cloth, for example, because you'll have problems with the resin permeating through, but cheesecloth seems reasonable (I would even look for something a bit thicker, like loose weave linen).



Take extra care to reinforce stress points, like corners and edges, extra well, and generally make the composite thicker than you would have with fiberglass+polyurethane. Fiberglass's most common failure is cracking, and these materials will likely be more susceptible.
 
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Awesomeness said:
I would actually like to see someone make edible armor. :p



The Aqua Resin shouldn't have any long term stability issues. If it did, they would have a hard time marketing it since nobody would want to make something from it if it would just degrade and warp. I did some searching online and couldn't find anyone badmouthing its lifetime. What you will most likely experience is a lower quality of physical properties (e.g. it won't wet the fiberglass as well/thoroughly, it may be weaker or more brittle, it won't adhere as well or to as wide a range of base materials, etc.).



You can literally put anything in the resin to reinforce it, it's just a matter of how much reinforcement you get as a result. You could shred your sock and use it, if you wanted to. Fiberglass woven cloth, fiberglass mat, chopped fiberglass strands, and then all those things from other stranded materials like cloth, shredded twine, etc. The characteristics that you want to emphasize are materials with low elasticity, that will be wetted by the resin well. So you don't want to use a very tightly woven cloth, for example, because you'll have problems with the resin permeating through, but cheesecloth seems reasonable (I would even look for something a bit thicker, like loose weave linen).



Take extra care to reinforce stress points, like corners and edges, extra well, and generally make the composite thicker than you would have with fiberglass+polyurethane. Fiberglass's most common failure is cracking, and these materials will likely be more susceptible.

Thanks for the info, and I'll definitely look into the linen idea.
 
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Jason02 said:
Ah, okay. Thanks for the quick and thorough reply. (Sits in corner eating polyurethane resin), ha this stuff isn't tox...(dies)

Well, in all likelihood, it wouldn't kill you immediately. If you managed to absorb any of those carcinogens into your bloodstream, you would have some nice lovely cancer floating around in the coming years. Otherwise the resin would pretty much burn right through your bowels. I don't want to even think about what colour your urine would be, but it would pretty much kill almost all the bacteria in your stomach... and intestines.... and your kidneys.... your liver would probably be overloaded.... not a pretty picture. :eek You'd survive with medical help though. One method that a couple of people have used with other crafts/armor (I saw it two years ago) is they use a mixture of just plain white glue and water applied in relatively the same method as fiberglass to muslin cloth. (1:1 glue + water ~~~~ soak the cloth in it~~~~~ put on the inside of the armor.) I'm not sure how well it worked out... Good luck with whatever you do!!! (BTW: Dibs on the first chocolate armor :pActually... I've seen a fairly good masterchief cake :lol)





Good luck!
 
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