ODST armor useful for the military?

CoolC

Well-Known Member
I don't believe anyone touched the subject of the projectiles the armor has to withstand. I played ODST game and the fact is there are no physical projectiles. The Covenant used electric and plasma pulses. The ODST armor is similar to the armor of Spartans but at lower end. They have shields that protect the ODST solders from Covenants weapons. I don't think ODST armor can withstand ballistic projectiles. For example, ODST armor has a crotch plate. Do you think it can protect the treasures from a 50 cal bullet?

Soldiers today wear bulletproof vest in hoping to get some extra protection. If ODST armor can provide that protection, assuming that the soldiers are not facing enemies like the covenants, ODST armor can be used by the military.
 

SchizophrenicMC

Well-Known Member
"The ODST Armor has gone through several design changes since the start of the Human-Covenant War. The current version incorporates technology initially developed for the MJOLNIR Armor. This includes CTCs for body armor, titanium and ceramic composite armor plating to give the user added protection - along with HUD and Communications Systems to give more situational awareness to the wearer."
-ODST battle armor on Halo.Wikia.com

So, we know for certain it's made of titanium ceramic composite, and can stop bullets. Further data states the undersuit contains several layers of kevlar.

With all metals, it's all about your mix. Straight iron is very heavy, prone to rust, and not very strong, but by making an iron alloy called steel, with carbon in the mix, you get a lighter, stronger, and more corrosion-resistant material. Pure titanium isn't as strong as steel, but by mixing it with various other metals, and making titanium carbides, you can get even lighter, stronger metal.

I can't think of any aircraft that has 2 inches thick of any metal for any reason. Even the skeleton isn't that thick. The bathtub on the A-10 only hits 1.5 at its thickest point, and that thing stops all the way up to 57mm. You put 20mm fire on an infantryman, in any armor, he's going to die. That's nearly twice .50 caliber. 1/8 to 1/2 inch of titanium armor plating is more than enough for small arms fire, especially combined with the kevlar undersuit.

Keep in mind, also, that the ODST equip did not include a motion tracker, but instead had VISR mode which could optically track moving objects and read IFF signals.

Anyway, a lot of the brass are politicians, themselves, now. Spend enough years playing by their rules and you stop objecting and join them. Did you see how quickly and quietly the Fifth Generation Fighter program got cut? There were no statements from the Air Force Commandant, nor any generals, or any Navy personnel. Just the news that Congress and the Obama Administration had seen fit to cut it from development and manufacture. When the decision was made to swap to the F-18 instead of upgrade the F-14, even though the latter was a higher-performance platform, the brass all supported it, because it was cheaper. (That's according to my grandpa, a Navy lifer, who retired in 2007) It's just always going to be a game of Find The Lowest Bidder, be it the fault of the military or the politicians. This whole idea of futuristic armor, although feasible and capable of saving lives, is too expensive for their tastes.
 

Egam47

Member
i think its possible just like everyone says too expensive, i dont think weight would be a problem however i'm pretty sure they could develop a material light enough yet strong enough to stop a bullet or at least slow it down so that the damage is way less destructive to the soldiers body, i just think it boils down to if they are willing to spend the money or not which we all know our government prefers blowing money on private jets hookers and other items which only screws this nations economy over even more, they dont care about our soldiers as far as they are concerned there are enough of us average people willing to join up and fight their wars and if were not willing they just issue a draft, sucks but true
 

Sithslayer78

Active Member
Incoming large block of uninterrupted text.

Given the rate of advancement of Military technology (especially given the defense spending by the USA and other "Superpowers") An ODST and perhaps even Spartan like armor system is certainly possible and can be made to be practical. Nanotechnology will play a huge role in creating effective materials from scratch, and given enough time, this is certainly practical. I plan on doing some work for this in my perhaps far off future career. It is possible, and can be practical. HOWEVER, that is not the primary concern. While respective governments want to equip their warfighters with the best protective technology possible, the psychological impact of such technology can have overwhelming drawbacks. As most military action today is under the rationale of humanitarian or peacekeeping missions, the effect of having Armor clad soldiers can be very negative. Soldiers without faces (or whom seem robotic) are often seen as a staple or motif of an oppressive occupying force (See Star Wars, Representations of Nazi Germany, Command and Conquer, etc). In essence, in today's battlefield, humanity carries value as does protection thereof. However, perhaps in a more grim and black and white battle field, such armor will have applications, and will almost certainly be developed.
 
Incoming large block of uninterrupted text.

Given the rate of advancement of Military technology (especially given the defense spending by the USA and other "Superpowers") An ODST and perhaps even Spartan like armor system is certainly possible and can be made to be practical. Nanotechnology will play a huge role in creating effective materials from scratch, and given enough time, this is certainly practical. I plan on doing some work for this in my perhaps far off future career. It is possible, and can be practical. HOWEVER, that is not the primary concern. While respective governments want to equip their warfighters with the best protective technology possible, the psychological impact of such technology can have overwhelming drawbacks. As most military action today is under the rationale of humanitarian or peacekeeping missions, the effect of having Armor clad soldiers can be very negative. Soldiers without faces (or whom seem robotic) are often seen as a staple or motif of an oppressive occupying force (See Star Wars, Representations of Nazi Germany, Command and Conquer, etc). In essence, in today's battlefield, humanity carries value as does protection thereof. However, perhaps in a more grim and black and white battle field, such armor will have applications, and will almost certainly be developed.
Yeah, but ODSTs are special forces; the elite. They wouldn't be sent on humanitarian missions. For their type of deployments, that "intimidation factor" would serve their purposes very well.
 

Sithslayer78

Active Member
Yeah, but ODSTs are special forces; the elite. They wouldn't be sent on humanitarian missions. For their type of deployments, that "intimidation factor" would serve their purposes very well.
Yes, but that's my point. Today, there isn't much need for heavy special forces operations since our "enemies" usually happen to be militarily inferior to most superpowers. Badass armor like ODSTs and Spartans are certainly possible even today, but until there is a real need for them, we won't be seeing them.
 

Eled

Jr Member
One thing I see as a bit of a problem is the HUD. It may be a bit to much to keep track off. Especially in an actually life or death situation. I often lose track of some small bits of info like ammo or the motion tracker. Two things that are sometimes vital. I did read at one point about is how soilders were trying to track a bunch of electronic info but were suffering from an information overload. It seems that human mind likes things simple, like "See those guys? Shoot them."
 

Xephyron

Jr Member
Alright, a lot of these posts were tl;dr, so I'm sorry if I repeat any information/opinion.

First off, the ODSTs are supposed to be the elite soldiers. A lot of the speculation here is directed towards general military infantry using them, but this would really only be for Navy Seals or special Marines squads.

Secondly, the weight problem could be simply solved by the addition of a relatively cheap exoskeleton, I.E. the Lockheed Martin HULC project.

Third, HUD technology is already being integrated into the upper echelon of the marines to monitor the heart rate and location of their team, both on their visors and wrist units. Also night vision. No brainer there.

And as for the armor, even if you don't want to use poly-carbides and titanium alloys, I'm sure most of you have heard of Dragon Skin bulletproof armor, layered ceramic plates that laugh at repeated attempts by smaller caliber rounds, which an elite stealth squad that would put this armor to use, not an assault unit, which is what most people are thinking of.

Anything I'm missing?
 

SchizophrenicMC

Well-Known Member
Alright, a lot of these posts were tl;dr, so I'm sorry if I repeat any information/opinion.

First off, the ODSTs are supposed to be the elite soldiers. A lot of the speculation here is directed towards general military infantry using them, but this would really only be for Navy Seals or special Marines squads.
A point I tried to cover, which kind of justifies the cost.
Secondly, the weight problem could be simply solved by the addition of a relatively cheap exoskeleton, I.E. the Lockheed Martin HULC project.
The weight issue lies in that hard armor is always heavier than the bare BDU and kevlar vest currently in service. A serviceable ODST armor would probably weigh around 60 to 70 pounds on its own, simply because of all the titanium ceramic plates.
Third, HUD technology is already being integrated into the upper echelon of the marines to monitor the heart rate and location of their team, both on their visors and wrist units. Also night vision. No brainer there.
Basically, yeah.
And as for the armor, even if you don't want to use poly-carbides and titanium alloys, I'm sure most of you have heard of Dragon Skin bulletproof armor, layered ceramic plates that laugh at repeated attempts by smaller caliber rounds, which an elite stealth squad that would put this armor to use, not an assault unit, which is what most people are thinking of.
Well, yeah, but, Dragon-Skinning it would be a completely different armor concept. The ODST armor, which this is a discussion about, consists of several single-plate armor sections, not armor scales. Not that your statement isn't valid, it's just not very much in line with ODST armor.
Anything I'm missing?

Sith, the thing is, "militarily inferior" doesn't mean "no way to kill our soldiers". The band of insurgents that oppose the military aren't afraid at all of US soldiers, because the latter can't pinpoint them, are just as liable to get themselves dead as shoot insurgents, and are fodder for improvised explosives. Even our elite are ineffective. We don't stop a lot of them, and we don't even lower their morale. That's where the faceless killing machine sonuvabitch in bulletproof black armor comes in. You see this coming at you, not being slowed down by your bullets and explosives, and you will feel fear. And your comrades will feel fear. And everyone who hears about it or sees it will feel fear. And this fear will make you abandon your cause, for you know you will not win, because not only are you "militarily inferior" but you're lightyears behind that.

I mean, SEALs don't get sent to help with humanitarian aid. US Army soldiers, Navy seamen, Air Force airmen, and the like do. The SEALs infiltrate, complete their combat mission quickly and effectively, and get out. They don't have to be warm and inviting. They have to be good fighters with gear up to par with their mission. ODSTs are like SEALs. I mean, the soldiers and marines in Halo all have open-faced helmets or wear caps. It's only the elite, the ODSTs and the Spartans who wear closed helmets. (And a few police and pilot exceptions)

In truth there is a very real need for such technologies. Things that can save the lives of those who are fighting to end oppression and terror. The status quo is insufficient.


Eled: With a HUD, you would pay it varying levels of attention, based on your situation. In heated combat, you probably wouldn't pay any more mind than where the firing reticule appears, and making sure that is in the same place as the bad guy. Maybe the red flash when your gun is starting to click low on ammo. But, let's say the fighting is at a lull. You need to quickly get a figure on your team's status, your weapon's ammunition, your vital signs, et cetera. Why not have the HUD tell you? Just leave it all up there so you're constantly in the know. The beautiful thing about the human brain is, if you focus it on a single thing, miscellany just fades out of view. It's like driving a car. You have a tachometer, spedometer, odometer, trip meter, fuel gauge, oil pressure gauge, water temperature gauge, volt meter, clock, and sometimes, even a GPS navigation system. Ideally, you should be minding all of them, simultaneously. But, in reality, you only focus on the speedometer and tach, while driving, and only occasionally glance at the others. But if you got rid of all the others (like most cars with idiot lights installed >.>) you would be screwed when you needed that info, because there would be no way to get it. (Because your idiot light isn't telling you)

The way I see it, all of these technologies are very useful, but damned expensive.
 

gingersnapples

Well-Known Member
you mean like in crysis??
no, thats insanley advanced on a MJOLNIR scale plus 10.

@ScitzophrenticMC: i see your point, and it sure as hell would be expensive, but a hud is hard to replicate: for one the only known way to implement a HUD in the first place are OLEDs (Organic Light Emmiting Diodes), then- after installing it- you have to adjust it so its constantly in focus for EACH wearer of the suit. that number might range be tens of thousands of soldiers (even more), each with their own unique focus point.

(oh, and ODST have been injured by IEDs before BTW.)
 

SchizophrenicMC

Well-Known Member
no, thats insanley advanced on a MJOLNIR scale plus 10.

@ScitzophrenticMC: i see your point, and it sure as hell would be expensive, but a hud is hard to replicate: for one the only known way to implement a HUD in the first place are OLEDs (Organic Light Emmiting Diodes), then- after installing it- you have to adjust it so its constantly in focus for EACH wearer of the suit. that number might range be tens of thousands of soldiers (even more), each with their own unique focus point.

(oh, and ODST have been injured by IEDs before BTW.)
There's also pane holography, where a hologram is projected onto a pane of glass, creating the HUD seen in aircraft cockpits and some late-80s gimmick speedometers. But, TOLED (Transparent OLED) technology seems to be increasingly valid as a high-resolution, low-power display. A common focal point is likely to be selected, then fine-tuned with software in the helmet to fit the end user. Keep in mind, too, that there aren't an incredibly large number of soldiers in elite strike units.

Even if ODSTs have been injured by IEDs, keep in mind their armor provides a lot more protection against ballistics, as well as apparently concussion. (A la game canon, being within a meter of a grenade does not kill you as an ODST, either by shrapnel or any concussion. A soldier in today's armor would be shredded by the same explosion and proximity) That being said, being inside an armored light transport, while wearing the armor would provide much more protection against improvised explosives, than status quo.
 

tubachris85x

Well-Known Member
There's also pane holography, where a hologram is projected onto a pane of glass, creating the HUD seen in aircraft cockpits and some late-80s gimmick speedometers. But, TOLED (Transparent OLED) technology seems to be increasingly valid as a high-resolution, low-power display. A common focal point is likely to be selected, then fine-tuned with software in the helmet to fit the end user. Keep in mind, too, that there aren't an incredibly large number of soldiers in elite strike units.

Even if ODSTs have been injured by IEDs, keep in mind their armor provides a lot more protection against ballistics, as well as apparently concussion. (A la game canon, being within a meter of a grenade does not kill you as an ODST, either by shrapnel or any concussion. A soldier in today's armor would be shredded by the same explosion and proximity) That being said, being inside an armored light transport, while wearing the armor would provide much more protection against improvised explosives, than status quo.
I can see that if the military started using full head helmets and implimented some type of HUD that the focusing portion would be part of general equipment set-up, no different in a sense of adjusting your helmet's chin strap.
 

SchizophrenicMC

Well-Known Member
I can see that if the military started using full head helmets and implimented some type of HUD that the focusing portion would be part of general equipment set-up, no different in a sense of adjusting your helmet's chin strap.
Yeah, basically. Note that when I speak like that, I'm being purely hypothetical.
 

tubachris85x

Well-Known Member
Yeah, basically. Note that when I speak like that, I'm being purely hypothetical.
Oh I know, same here. The idea is cool in theory, but in practicality is just not feasable, at least with our current technology. There is alot of it that can be done, such as the armor and basic electronics. The HUD is not far off though if you think about it. They are already developing a mini-computer type screen onto a contact lens
 

SchizophrenicMC

Well-Known Member
To be fair, the only technologies in the ODST armor that I can't see being possible by today's technology, are the VISR system and the power supply. The biggest issue is, while it's possible to shove all those electronics into the armor, and make armor of sufficient strength, there is no current power supply to feed it all with any semblance of effective battery life. Also, the visual recognition system that makes VISR work is more advanced than current software.
 

waco

New Member
Just an opinion, but... The armor can be done... it'll be heavy (relatively) and the HUD tech actually exists. It's just a matter of militarizing the civilian tech. On top of that, the armor would be too heavy to be effective for light, fast units (i.e. SOF) however, add in some nano-fiber material (which does exists in the developmental phase) and you now have a stronger, faster soldier who seems impervious to enemy fire and who has monster SA. Armor... doable, possibly even practical one day, but we're not there yet. Also, I must agree with Schizo... It is possible to make the stuff, and to cram all the electronics into the armor, but the max powerlife of any man portable battery right now (laptop battery size/smaller) would be mere minutes or hours, whereas an operator may have to remain in the field for days. It'd be cool, but at present I don't see it being particularly feasible. Also, in regard to weapons (while I'm on my soap box), many tests have been done on caseless ammunition and while a cool concept, none of the caseless designs tested to date have been particularly effective as they create excessive fouling in the weapons that they were tested in, the M7 might be effective if it used a pistolgrip magazine like the MP7, but the side-mounted stick wouldn't do much good, and there's NO WAY that little bitty stick could hold 48 rds of any form of effective ammunition.
 

SchizophrenicMC

Well-Known Member
I just said the battery is the biggest weak point. Did you even read that? VISR and the power supply are the only things that we can't do with it yet.

Even the armor, itself, at a usable weight is possible. Titanium Carbide ceramics are very lightweight for their strength. You wouldn't need a lot of thick armor to stop bullets. Add to that, there's a kevlar bodysuit, and you need less armor. Thus, it becomes lighter. It would likely be heavier than the basic gear (without pack) that a soldier today uses, but you'll note the basic gear, sans pack, has always gotten heavier over the years.

And the big issue with Caseless ammunition is it likes to cook off prematurely, fouling the weapon. An effective stabilizing agent, that doesn't prevent ignition entirely, has yet to be created, but I foresee it will, in time. It's just a matter of the correct chemicals. The other problem is they put a helluva lot more carbon into the gun's joints, breech, and barrel. Again, the issue is finding the right composition that prevents this.

Keep in mind, also, that the M7 only fires 5mm rounds. That stick, in actuality, is large enough, for the zig-zag configuration of the magazine to contain 48 5mm rounds. The big question is, how do they move the rounds from vertical, as they're stored, to horizontal, for firing, and do it quickly, and maintainably?
 

waco

New Member
Also, I must agree with Schizo...
Yes I did... I was in fact agreeing with you. As it pertains to the weight of the gear was increasing, however now a days there's a steady (but very slow) decrease in weight of our standard issue gear. for example... the vest I was issued in basic six years ago weighs about 10lbs more than the vest I have currently issued to me. The main problem with external plates (especially titanium/ceramic mixture) is that they are more exposed to fracture/wear and tear that would weaken the plates. Hence the reason for plate carriers versus external plates.

As I also said, the main problem of the caseless ammo is the excessive fouling. It is true though that some of the early prototype ammunition had problems with premature ignition... however the most recent set of prototypes in caseless appear to have solved that problem. Fouling is still the main issue with caseless ammo that they're testing at current, it's the fact that the entire "shell" burns up in the process of firing the round, generating more fouling than normal ammunition.

As for the magazine, that has actually been nearly perfected. The Fabrique Nationale P-90/PS-90 use a top mounted high capacity rotating feed magazine. The P-90 has one of the highest ROF of any submachine guns currently in existence. The system is simple, there is a rotational curvature plate at the front of the magazine that rotates the round and drops it into the breach. the problem would be making it work in a side feed system, as the P90 is top mounted and uses gravity feeding.
 

tubachris85x

Well-Known Member
Yea I was going to mention that about the P90. As for nano tubes, don't count on that any time soon. It's gotten along way in research but it's still along ways off.

One possible solution to the battery problem is kinectic based chargers. There are already some issued gear that charge just by the movement of the soldier wearing the equipment. I can't say how effective it would be, but I imagine a combined solar charger w/ kinectic charge system, it could be pretty profound.

I'd say the only practical part of the odst armor if I had to choose, would be the helmet. I say that without the HUD thought unless they made that functional to an extent. I believe it to be more practical, assuming it was made with appropriate light weight material and a ballistic resistant visor. I primarily feel the helemt is most practical due to it's field of vision allowed, which for the most part is not obstructed.

It's also reletivley smaller not as combersome as a Kevlar helmet today.
 

SchizophrenicMC

Well-Known Member
Yes I did... I was in fact agreeing with you. As it pertains to the weight of the gear was increasing, however now a days there's a steady (but very slow) decrease in weight of our standard issue gear. for example... the vest I was issued in basic six years ago weighs about 10lbs more than the vest I have currently issued to me. The main problem with external plates (especially titanium/ceramic mixture) is that they are more exposed to fracture/wear and tear that would weaken the plates. Hence the reason for plate carriers versus external plates.

As I also said, the main problem of the caseless ammo is the excessive fouling. It is true though that some of the early prototype ammunition had problems with premature ignition... however the most recent set of prototypes in caseless appear to have solved that problem. Fouling is still the main issue with caseless ammo that they're testing at current, it's the fact that the entire "shell" burns up in the process of firing the round, generating more fouling than normal ammunition.

As for the magazine, that has actually been nearly perfected. The Fabrique Nationale P-90/PS-90 use a top mounted high capacity rotating feed magazine. The P-90 has one of the highest ROF of any submachine guns currently in existence. The system is simple, there is a rotational curvature plate at the front of the magazine that rotates the round and drops it into the breach. the problem would be making it work in a side feed system, as the P90 is top mounted and uses gravity feeding.
My apologies. I missed the part with my name in it. I do that often, actually.

Well, my data is off. Anyway, excessive carbon is still the primary issue. I must wonder, though, what caliber rounds have been tested with caseless ammunition? The M7 uses a 5mm round, which is fairly small.

Based on the thickness of the armor, I am willing to bet it's fairly resistant to fracture in situations where the force of the impact would not kill the user.

Tubachris, why do I get the feeling the Helmet would end up heavier than currently used models? :p

Oh, and, Waco, you wouldn't happen to be from the town on 35 would you?
 
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