Psychological Assessment of SIERRA II/John-Ident#117 SPARTAN 'super soldier' project

[alix965]

But if you insist, they have coke,;-)

This is a great thing because I LOVES ME SOME COCAINE. Germany here I come!

 

[ventrue]

This is a great thing because I LOVES ME SOME COCAINE. Germany here I come!

Haha... The other one

 

[Syphon]

And if you think that Cortan did fill that void, then that raises yet another question: was John simply lucky, as Cortana said, or was he lucky because his relationship with Cortana had some unmeasurable effect on his psyche and thus combat effectiveness?

At the beginning of Halo 3, during the opening scene where you watch John fall back to Earth, Cortana says that she chose John because he was lucky. She said this in past tense meaning (to me anyway) that John was lucky before he met Cortana. Also, if having Cortana had effected John's fighting abilities that much, John wouldn't have been anywhere near as effective fighting without Cortana for the majority of Halo 3

 

[alix965]

If that had been Chief, he would have been confident he was gonna kill them all and live, and likely would have. The will to live is an important thing to have. So is it possible that because Chief had Cortana, it gave him some kind of psychological boost that increased his chances of survival?
QUOTE]
Cortana's relationship with John certainly parallels her clone donor's. it was made abundantly clear in Fall of Reach when Halsey gives the precocious new construct the chance to make her choice. Halsey comments that he was neither the strongest or the smartest, but he was certainly the bravest. and there's something else he had. Luck. To which Cortie replies with something about him being handsome in a brutish(?) sort of way (I'm paraphrasing). Halsey blushes because Cortie is putting into words things that surely exist in her own, and therefore Cortana's subconcious, and it's a little off-putting for a ice queen like Catherine Halsey to hear her innermost thoughts spoken out loud.

I think John has always been lucky. Fortune has always favored this particular SPARTAN. This coupled with his innate leadership abilities and superior strenght of will and situational innovation makes him the perfect candidate for best SPARTAN evah. Cortana started out as an enhancement. A new set of eyes, an starship grade AI that can crack any enemy encryption. But sure enough, her presence "in his head" became more than just something to give him an edge in combating the implacable enemy. She was an everpresent Dr. Halsey that could guide him in those few moments of uncertainty. Testing Majonir at the Reach training facility demonstrated this perfectly. Cortana, at leats the way Jen Talyor portays her, somtimes borders on fussiness comparable to that of C-3po, which I understand are moments of rampancy.

If you consider John as an elite modern day athlete the very REAL and enormous tatctical edge Cortie provides, coupled with his own understanding of his abilities and his will to carry out the mission makes this man a force to reackon with. Add to that the PERCEIVED advantage that comes from that metaphysical element John has always known as luck, and this kid is on his way to taking gold medals in all events.

 

[BEN B023]

alix965, I am pleased that you have been mature in handling our own points of views etc. Most forums this is greatly lacking since people can't take criticsm. Plus it is neat to hear other peoples logic conclusions even if they differ, versus "NObel six is cheif, I knoz it" crap.


The most compelling thing, and most mystery surrounding it; is when Dr. Halsey went to the school to see him and then..flipped a coin. TO me, something about that event stands out. In my own opinion I think it was the fact that she knew he was the ultimate leader and best out of all the other candidates, but at the same time realized what would happen to him once she made up her mind and because(for whatever reason) John meant something to her and she couldn't decide...she left it to luck/fate/destiny to decide.

 

[Sangheili811]

Negative. Halsey flipped a coin for every candidate to let random chance narrow the field. She had twice as many eligible "participants" as she did places in the program.

 

[AI Blue Fox]

All I have to say about this subject is, if you read the end of ghosts of onyx, you find out that when a spartan realizes the amount of loss and grief in their lives, they try and search for something like another mission or a job to do. If they did not, they would have a complete mental breakdown. You do NOT want to be standing next to a spartan when the have a meltdown unless you have a death wish.

 

[alix965]

alix965, I am pleased that you have been mature in handling our own points of views etc. Most forums this is greatly lacking since people can't take criticsm. Plus it is neat to hear other peoples logic conclusions even if they differ, versus "NObel six is cheif, I knoz it" crap.


The most compelling thing, and most mystery surrounding it; is when Dr. Halsey went to the school to see him and then..flipped a coin. TO me, something about that event stands out. In my own opinion I think it was the fact that she knew he was the ultimate leader and best out of all the other candidates, but at the same time realized what would happen to him once she made up her mind and because(for whatever reason) John meant something to her and she couldn't decide...she left it to luck/fate/destiny to decide.

Thank you Ben-b023. I have to be honest though, I did read some opinions that were stated as fact, that got slightly underm my skin. But from what I understand that's the cost od writing in an open forum. This it the third forum that I have ever bothered to register to, the first being a "Chaos" forum and the second being the official Star Wars Galaxies) and for the most part the members of the 405th have not dissapointed me with their level of imagination, theoretical thought exploration and no matter how far-out the topic -like this one- the proper amount of maturity and diginity has been shown to the topic at hand.

*except that business with the sexy spartan thing, I think the 405th got rooked into giving that stupid chan site a bazillion hits*

Again thanks for the credit.

As far as Halsey's method of selection, Sangheili811 is correct. The coin toss 'Method' that Halsey utilized was a semi-scientific way for S3 to narrow down the lucky conscripts.

HOWEVER!
She watched as "..John tensed, bent his knees, and then his eyes seemed to lose focus on her and the coin."

Later Eric Nylund writes,

"She tossed it making sure there was plenty of spin. John's eyes watched it in that strange distant gaze, and tracked it as it went up then back down toward the ground. His hand snapped out and snatched the coin out of the air. He held up his closed hand and shouted EAGLE!"

2 sentences later,

"The quarter lay in his palm. the eagle shining in the orange sun"

I just had my wife dictate that out of the book verbatim because the author's prose has a great deal of meaning. This was no ordinary 6 year old and Halsey knew it. I am convinced that John's legendary "luck" is a result of superior natural talent. Perhaps all the luck he demonstarted throughout his career was the result of hime subconsciously assessing a situation with such detail and understanding that when as got out of got out of SO MANY sticky situations, the observer would be tempted to exclaim..'There's no way he meant to do that'

If you consider 117's contemporaries, this is no mean feat. As Garland wrote there was never an instance in the novels or games where SPARTAN-117 behaved as if his survival is at stake. No matter what the odds were, he always had an air of confidence. Except at the end of H3 when he almost got blown into outer space. After crawling to safety, and stitting behind a conduit, his shoulders slump and he looks like a man very lucky to be alive. I don't imagine MC as someone who would display any amount of bravado, but it was more like he KNEW, somehow, that there was so much to do for humankind that he was destined to not DIE.

 

[alix965]

All I have to say about this subject is, if you read the end of ghosts of onyx, you find out that when a spartan realizes the amount of loss and grief in their lives, they try and search for something like another mission or a job to do. If they did not, they would have a complete mental breakdown. You do NOT want to be standing next to a spartan when the have a meltdown unless you have a death wish.

Unfortunately I've yet to read onyx, but I saw a quote where Kat mentions that the S-III's act "twitchy" Then when I saw Emile, I had an Ah-Ha moment. Perhaps even among fellow SPARTANs,S-III's are understood to have the potential to "Go Off The Reservation".

THAT, ladies and gents would be a sight to behold.

 

[ventrue]

I just had my wife dictate that out of the book verbatim because the author's prose has a great deal of meaning. This was no ordinary 6 year old and Halsey knew it. I am convinced that John's legendary "luck" is a result of superior natural talent. Perhaps all the luck he demonstarted throughout his career was the result of hime subconsciously assessing a situation with such detail and understanding that when as got out of got out of SO MANY sticky situations, the observer would be tempted to exclaim..'There's no way he meant to do that'

I think John's "luck" might just as well be the result of him being average. As far as I remember, he's neither the worst (not sure if that's explicitly said anywhere) nor the best Spartan (that's in The Fall of Reach, where Cortana chooses her Spartan) at anything and THAT makes him the best Spartan in the end. Just a thought
Then again, he definitely also is lucky, so maybe the answer is as simple as that.

 

[alix965]

Wow i just typed for 45 minutes then accidentally hit the back button without posting. I think
i'm gonna ask a mod to lock this thread GAHHHAA!!!!

 

[ventrue]

Wow i just typed for 45 minutes then accidentally hit the back button without posting. I think
i'm gonna ask a mod to lock this thread GAHHHAA!!!!

You need Firefox and the Lazarus extension.

 

[Sangheili811]

Sangheili, I think I'll be sending you that PM. Your point about our fighting men and women makes this subject a lot more sobering than I care to admit.

Alix, if you already sent that Pm, please resend it. My PMs were turned off! Sorry about that.

 

[cjackson127]

I always wondered about the "luck" thing. Is John lucky or is he just good? I know they said he wasn't the best in The Fall of Reach, but maybe he is. Look at the best sports players are they lucky? or are they just good? I'm not a big supporter of "luck" in general but watching the Jets game yesterday, did they get lucky in end or was that just a mistake by Denver?

Chris

 

[alix965]

I always wondered about the "luck" thing. Is John lucky or is he just good? I know they said he wasn't the best in The Fall of Reach, but maybe he is. Look at the best sports players are they lucky? or are they just good? I'm not a big supporter of "luck" in general but watching the Jets game yesterday, did they get lucky in end or was that just a mistake by Denver?

Chris

This an excellent observation. What is luck after all? Is it some sort of metaphysical aspect of life that we perceive but cannot identify? Is it more of a cause and effect type of phenomenon. is it the grace of some GOD? As I detailed before, John's luck could very likely be the result of how quickly and effeciently he processes information. The funny part about the luck equation is that just like in that football game, does one person's BAD luck translate into another's GOOD luck?

According to Newton every action has an equal and opposite reaction, then John's skill and natural talent equals a lot of bad luck for the Covenant.

 

[J326]

btw more proof John doesn't always put what's logical over others. The novels First Strike, Halsey gave him the choice to either give the Full data on Sgt. Johnson's immunity against the flood to ONI who would then kill Johnson and research his corpse for a minuscule chance for a cure, vs. give only the partial data which would let Johnson live. It was Halsey's lesson to him, there will always be people in need of saving but just save the ones you can which are the ones in front of you. Chief decided to sacrifice Johnson at first based on logic (which was funny cuz he wanted Johnson to deliver the data unknowingly) but in the end he decided to take Halsey's Lesson and chose not to sacrifice Johnson and save him.

 

[alix965]

I was hoping to only reference The Fall of Reach and Halo CE. I believe that John's first appearances in these two different forms of media give a good first impression as to what motivates MC. Plus both the breadth of the UNSC's SPARTAN program and the scope of Bungie's successful mythology make the Master Chief and his exploits far too involved for all but the most avid Halo fans to follow. I surely don't want this thread to be me and a couple of other posters, endlessly debating every little detail of the Haloverse. It pleases me greatly that there have been so many opposing comments posted from so many different people. It does not interest me in the least to suppress another person's opinion. Not 'irl' nor in this forum.

HOWevah!!!

Thanks for the reminder J326, I was meaning to re-visit the assets versus the caring/social preservation of civillians and non-essential beings thing.

Interestingly enough I touched on how unique John and Avery friendship is. Johnson can easily hold his own against the Covenant and as well as, and probably more importantly, teh dreaded Flood. At the beginning of H2 we see Sarge and the Chief engaged in banther that can only be comapared to the kind of conversation SPARTAN 117 has with the mischieveous and everpresent voice in his head.

I contend ladies and gentlemen of the jury, that the common denominator between Sergeant A.J. Johnson and UNSC Artificial Intelligence: serial number CTN 0452-9, is their usefulness in battle!.

This is not to say that there isn't a human fondness that comes naturally, especially to someone so socially deprived, in situations of extreme common distress. Viable allies are becoming ever more scarce as the slaughter of millions of people continues almost unabated. So the mission minded super-soldier, the product of untold monies and resources, the ever faithful to chain of command, last of his kind SPARTAN, is given and then finds a 'force multiplier'.

As you astutely observed, MC's first instinct was to serve the greater good and SPEND Sarge, Something he picked up from "Mom" perhaps? But as Dr. Halsey herself has demonstrated, John second guesses this knee-jerk reaction and chooses to spare the life of this able and brave combat vet whom may possibly remind him of his ersatz 'dad'. It is a gesture I'm sure he would have extended to CPO Mendez. But not to Kelly for example-since she too is/was a SPARTAN and thus expected to submit to the UNSC chain of command.

I won't go as far as saying that he didn't give a damn about Johnson, he obvioulsy did, but what could possibly be the reasoning behind sending someone to what will basically be their own dissection.

 

[BEN B023]

First off, MC gave the data chip about Sgt. Johnson to Haverson. Haverson and Whitcomb gave their lives for the greater good and before they left, Haverson gave chip to Sgt. Johnson not knowing what it had. Then Sgt. Johnson gave it back to MC.

In this short time we see MC fight the greatest fight he probably has ever seen, even if he had other spartans, and watched Grace die. He watched how Linda barely patched up with new organs was shooting her best for MC....and guess what..He went BACK to get her. The day he saved her even though she was dead was a turning point. He understands he needs to make sacrifices like letting hundreds die to save BILLIONS like in the case of Sgt. Johnson. MC however changes just like Dr. Halsey in the sense that they are getting tired/and or questioning why the sacrifices if it hasn't changed the war.

Admiral Whitcomb and Haverson could have fled to earth and saved their skins, but they knew in order to truely give earth a fighting hope they had to sacrifice themselves. Chief has to make that descision ALOT.

Our best marines have feelings, they work and train as a team, however in the middle of a mission if a guy goes down and saving him may cause the mission to fail, they WILL leave him behind and that marine KNOWS this. He dies to save others. The marines will put feelings aside and complete the mission, and shed a tear later. That is their duty. Just like a Spartan.

 

[SchizophrenicMC]

I gotta say it, but you have a real hard on for making Master Chief sound like an emotionless tactician. I'm sorry, but Johnson and Cortana are only two of many examples of when the Chief saves lives. For example, the rendezvous with the Pelican in orbit. It took precious time away from him, but he saved the lives of those lost Marines, as well as dragged a couple cryo pods onboard. I guess you could argue they were useful, but how useful were they? I mean, he is a Spartan, right? How 'bout that Engineer? It wasn't even human and he questioned why it was killed after helping him. Every time the Chief runs into an endangered soldier, he seems to protect him or her. It's like an older brother pushing bullies off his younger sibling. He knows he can take more punishment and fight better, so he throws himself in the line of fire to help his comrades, out of compassion, something psychopaths and, really, any emotionless person don't have. I've noted a trend where he tries to save as many people as he can, at whatever cost it is to himself, quite contrary to your claim he uses people for tactical good, with complete disregard to their lives.

 

[alix965]

@Ben-023 This a perfect example of why I wanted to limit the references. Although I have read First Strike, it was ages ago AND it shows a different Chief. It was a huge fail on my part to use j326's post as a reference. For example, If we were to use all sources to support our individual points of view, I could easily use references in the SPARTAN III program and how it's subjects were being encouraged to be more "pro-active" and obedient, as an indicator of what the real purpose of the S3 super-soldier program was originally meant to be. Cost be damnned. But that would invite all sorts of tangents and once opened that can of worms could not be contained. So...

Also although I agree with you whole-heartedly about the parallels our fighting men and women display in the service of our country, I would rather not diminsh what they do by disccussing them in a 'detached' SCI-FI forum. If you like we can continue via PM's I'll send you my email.

I'll just say that the events that take place preceeding to and during Operation: RESTORE HOPE are a glaring example uncommon valor on the part of the men, and on the part of the brass, how to waste lives . There is a HUGE disconnect.