Psychological Assessment of SIERRA II/John-Ident#117 SPARTAN 'super soldier' project

alix965

Well-Known Member
Nice comments. just woke up from a nap and I'm going to work It's 9:30 pm and I'm off to work until the sun comes up. I wish I could spend all my time in this forum.
 

Trooper114

Well-Known Member
In real life he would, I've seen it. Well, not the slapping, but certainly a comment that the person in question ought to know proper forms of address.

But I get it, real world military ranks are not equivalent to those in the game and most of the novels. Halo: Flood, having been written by an ex-military man, does a better job at matching up the way the real world military talks to each other.

-----------------------------------

On the other matter, if the Spartan genes are recessive, there is a good possibility that any children would suffer from genetic deformities and diseases. Taking out the ability to reproduce probably was a kindness.

------------------------------------


--
Good point, all well, it would have been cool though to see a five year old bench pressing 100lbs, lol. As for calling chief sir, not all military people act like that.
 

Peagis01

Jr Member
I dont find John to be a psychopath either, yeah he comes off as detached at times but he still cares, especially for his fellow spartans. I've always felt there was more to John and Linda's relationship as well.
 

Upchuk

Jr Member
FROM WIKIPEDIA......so may not be completely accurate.

The prototypical psychopath has deficits or deviances in several areas: interpersonal relationships, emotion, and self-control. Psychopaths gain satisfaction through antisocial behavior, and do not experience shame, guilt, or remorse for their actions.[12][13][14] Psychopaths lack a sense of guilt or remorse for any harm they may have caused others, instead rationalizing the behavior, blaming someone else, or denying it outright.[15] Psychopaths also lack empathy towards others in general, resulting in tactlessness, insensitivity, and contemptuousness. All of this belies their tendency to make a good, likable first impression. Psychopaths have a superficial charm about them, enabled by a willingness to say anything without concern for accuracy or truth. Shallow affect also describes the psychopath's tendency for genuine emotion to be short lived and egocentric with an overall cold demeanor. Their behavior is impulsive and irresponsible, often failing to keep a job or defaulting on debts.[15] Psychopaths also have a markedly distorted sense of the potential consequences of their actions, not only for others, but also for themselves. They do not deeply recognize the risk of being caught, disbelieved or injured as a result of their behaviour.

I would have to say, judging by THIS criteria, since im not a pshyc major that John may be maladjusted, but he is far from a pshycopath. Granted he kills the covanent indiscriminatly, which isnt hard since they aren't human, so the disassociation is easy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Trooper114

Well-Known Member
Seen it, alot of people think its Linda, but personaly, i think it's John. He isn't in cryo yet because they just brought him aboard and is waiting in the hangar to be taken to cryo.
 

SchizophrenicMC

Well-Known Member
I just want to say the whole sex drive issue was not on purpose, but a side-effect of a platinum-catalyst implant set in the SPARTANs' thyroid gland, as I recall. It was designed to boost muscle and skeletal growth, or something, but had the hormonal side-effect of almost completely suppressing sex hormones. (There is at least one noted exception, Maria-062, who retired and started a family. The article said she had planned on it, but the Halo Encyclopedia says she did) I firmly believe love, as in the kind we so celebrate in February, is inseparable from the sex drive. As strong an emotional attraction as there may be, you have to admit some amount of physical attraction is there, as well. Be it as simple as "this person is not only awesome, but the opposite sex" (not trying to exclude anyone, just an example), it's still there. If you don't have the capacity to recognize sexual and physical attraction, you're left without that kind of love. That said, SPARTANs all love each other, because they were raised together as a big family. They look out for one another, depend on each other, and understand each other. Just as anyone would with a brother or sister. They all love Halsey, too, because she's their mom, really.

Spartans, a few exceptions to be noted, are not psychopathic. Socially awkward? Yes. Maladjusted? Probably. Trained from a young, impressionable age, to be incredibly intelligent, put aside human compassion when necessary, and be brutally effective soldiers? Oh yeah. Spartans may have killed thousands - I wouldn't quite say millions - of people, but they did it because they saw it as a mission to protect others, putting themselves in harm's way to save their fellow man. That's the very basis of human compassion, there. Sacrifice your own comfort to help another. On an awkward scale, it may be, but it's still there. Add to that the fact that, for most of their career, their enemy was a ruthless, non-human killing machine, who threatened literally everybody's life, you can see where they would care far less for their enemy's suffering. I doubt any UNSC personnel, during the war, did care. Master Chief (Kurt, also) is shown to care the lives of his fellow men, several times, from throwing himself in front of the Covenant before Marines, instead of using them as cannon fodder, to crushing the data crystal containing Johnson's Boren Syndrome data and its correlation to the flood.

If anything, I'd say the Master Chief is INCREDIBLY stable, given that he's fought a war against a ruthless enemy who killed without compassion, for 26 years, destroying populations of millions in instants, and all this was after killing his fellow man for several years, to quell an insurrection. And all of that, not to mention the Flood, which drove many insane, just to see. The fact that he still has the will to live, and doesn't just kill everything he sees, then himself, is a testament to that. Sure, I'm no psychologist, and I haven't even taken a high school psych class, but come on, man.
 

Trooper114

Well-Known Member
Wow. thats awsome, i did not know that a Spartan could retire.

Another note about stable and unstable Spartans. Jun acctualy suffers from post traumatic stress syndrome, has had several psych evaluations and may have a screw or 2 loose. The reason for this is because most spatans start of fighting a 12 years old but Jun saw combat a younger age. How he can stay so focused and cool in combat who knows, maybe thats whay he's such a BA, lol.
 

alix965

Well-Known Member
Finally got some downtime before the spuds come home from school.
I was going to print out the pages of comments in this thread, scan pages from the novels, put up a video reply and refer to my extensive notes so I could address each comment individually, in an effort to not gloss over the best parts of your insightful replies but when I thought about the effort involved I decided against it. So notes it is. I will refer to the Fall Of REACH novel and Combat Evolved gane since I think those two separate pieces of media give the best FIRST impressions of Subject Sierra-117/John and I'll try and address all points made as specifically yet generally as possible.

Aside from his bio facts about Spartan 117 are subjective.

To me 117 seems to be the "wind-up" soldier Ackerson accused him of being In Fall of Reach. He faced off with fellow UNSC servicemen in the gymnasium of the UNSC Atlas on page 68 paragraph 2 and once ordered he proceeded to maim and or kill four ODST troopers. Later felt "strangely" sorry for the men, but immediately afterward CPO Mendez issues standing orders as a from of salve to the Chief. He is to fulfill the mission and keep his team safe. The wording of this standing order implies indifference toward anyone who is not part of his team or the mission. Perhaps before this incident the Chief had the benefit of reflecting on his own emotions before making a decision where lives were at stake.

The argument about the differences between fighting insurrectionists, and all the politics that come with that enemy, versus an otherworldly alien race, is a valid one. But I submit to you ladies and gentlemen, that John117 sees only three ways to react to people.if superior obey, if part of his team help, if threat neutralize them, as seen on page 66 paragraph 1. He is in fact a killing(hurting) MACHINE. True Cortana gives him credit for NOT being a mindless killer when she first "meets" him but then she admonishes him after getting to know him by saying "This ring is not a cudgel, you barbarian." at the Assualt on the Control room.

His relationship with Kelly was unique because she had something that impressed him, her speed. As well as with Sam who was strong, and so they became a trio of friends that were mutually beneficial. Although subconsciously John may have had a little kid crush on Kelly which 6-7 year olds have sometimes. Both very valuable part of his team.
Sgt. Avery Johnson was one tough hombre. He braved the Covenant and the Flood with equal skill and determination, even a Spartan would be impressed by Sarge's resilience, he was often at the Chiefs side and as such was a de facto part of his TEAM. behold the pattern? I aslo believe that Sergeant Johnson may have gotten on the Chief's good side because he reminded Him of his earliest non-com CPO Franklin Mendez.

The mission In the fall of reach where Sam sacrifices himself shows how Spartans care for each other. Real anguish was demonstrated by John 117, even as he instructed Kelly to "Come on Spartan, don't look back" as one of John's few friends Sam spent his life to destroy an entire Covenant ship.

However The UNSC personnel on the Pillar of Autumn that managed to make it onto installation 04 were more assets than they were lives to be saved. When given an individual who is driven by his desire to WIN, these assets could make the difference between victory and defeat, especially BEFORE the Flood are loosed. A good example of this rationale is at the battle of Cote D' Azur on page 176, where the Chief and his team is tasked with rallying a severely decimated UNSC marine contingent. "they were now part of his team but they lacked the Spartan's firepower and training so they had to be protected." So all of the shoulder pats and serviceman tossing were more a stacking of the odds for his team rather a saving of lives in peril.

I could go on about how Halsey was the mom surrogate and Mendez was the father figure so there was latent separation anxiety, or how 26 years of combat would strip away any human's ability to display emotion or how the nature of the augmentations was never thoroughly explored on human subjects so therefore experimental..or ooor OOORRR.
But my fingers are tired and I think I've made a few excellent, if not amusing observations about Our Beloved JOHN that support my point of view.

Perhaps psychopathic killer is too conventional a term for Spartan 117 as some indicators of psychopathology don't quite suit him. Maybe maladjusted or hyper-lethal is a more PC way of saying killing machine in the future. But I contend there is no way that someone goes through what this poor man has and come through it psychologically intact.

Maybe Jorge's behavior on Reach best reflect what John was going through, what John, had he not had to be strong for the rest, would say and do. Maybe if not for these things John would NOT have become the savior of earth and the rescuer of all mankind.

Rest in Peace Spartan117
 

ventrue

Well-Known Member
To me 117 seems to be the "wind-up" soldier Ackerson accused him of being In Fall of Reach. He faced off with fellow UNSC servicemen in the gymnasium of the UNSC Atlas on page 68 paragraph 2 and once ordered he proceeded to maim and or kill four ODST troopers.
As you say, it was an order. If it hadn't been one, it would have been self defense. I don't really see how this proves any kind of indifference.

And as for Ackerson: In the same novel it also becomes clear that the Spartans were better than his own project, which is probably the only reason why he tries to defame them.

True Cortana gives him credit for NOT being a mindless killer when she first "meets" him but then she admonishes him after getting to know him by saying "This ring is not a cudgel, you barbarian." at the Assualt on the Control room.
I'd say that is simply Cortana's arrogant personality. At the beginning of Halo:CE she also more or less says that Keyes is an idiot for going manual with the Pillar of Autumn. She isn't trying to express that the Chief is a barbarian, she wants to point out how very advanced she is herself.

However The UNSC personnel on the Pillar of Autumn that managed to make it onto installation 04 were more assets than they were lives to be saved. When given an individual who is driven by his desire to WIN, these assets could make the difference between victory and defeat, especially BEFORE the Flood are loosed. A good example of this rationale is at the battle of Cote D' Azur on page 176, where the Chief and his team is tasked with rallying a severely decimated UNSC marine contingent. "they were now part of his team but they lacked the Spartan's firepower and training so they had to be protected." So all of the shoulder pats and serviceman tossing were more a stacking of the odds for his team rather a saving of lives in peril.
The battle of Cote D' Azur is not an example for this rationale, because trying to save the Marines actually weakened the Spartans, the tactically stronger move here would have been to ignore them.
The Chief saves Marines, because they're allies and because he can, not because they would help him much. If a Marine dies although he could be saved with no negative side effects, his life is wasted. If a Marine dies for a significant purpose, his life is spent. The Chief doesn't waste lives.

how the nature of the augmentations was never thoroughly explored on human subjects so therefore experimental
I think that an experiment is something you do because you want to test some kind of assumption you have. There was nothing to be tested with those augmentations, however. They already knew about the desired positive effects and they also knew about the possible side effects and they simply accepted the risk. Sure, they may have learned something from it, but that doesn't make it an experiment.

But I contend there is no way that someone goes through what this poor man has and come through it psychologically intact.
Spartans definitely are strange, but that doesn't mean they have psychological problems.

So.. Maybe I just don't want the Chief to be a crazy psycho, but I'm still not conviced.
 

cjackson127

New Member
That a very interesting assessment that you came up with. I agree that the "psychopathic killer" is probably a little to much, but as you are trying to suggest a psychological profile, of John I do agree to the fact that there must be some major psychological issues caused by his upbringing, and his by his life experiences. I do agree that his does see people in simplistic view, with probably only the same three categories that you state, and this would be directly trough his bringing. I feel that he does have compassion but at a six year old's level, it's non complex and based on need. He hasn't had the chance to emotionally develop like a normal human does.... also with his enhancements and the loss of a sex drive he probably CAN'T feel love and compassion the way we do nor at the level and complexity that we do. This also leads me to believe you suggestion of a "mutually beneficial" relationship between John and his closest "friends". This friendship would be based on need. I couldn't imagine him sitting on a couch with Sargent Johnson drinking beer watching a football game, and I don't think John could emotionally do that either.
I would be interesting to hear from some military people out there about their relations to their combat friends and their home friends and if they are the same?

BTW nice to see someone else from the Island.

Chris
 
First off, I give you a lot of credit for the points you make, a friend and I spend hours debating stuff like this about characters you've probably never heard off (PM me if you're interested). However, I still disagree with you.

To me 117 seems to be the "wind-up" soldier Ackerson accused him of being In Fall of Reach. He faced off with fellow UNSC servicemen in the gymnasium of the UNSC Atlas on page 68 paragraph 2 and once ordered he proceeded to maim and or kill four ODST troopers. Later felt "strangely" sorry for the men, but immediately afterward CPO Mendez issues standing orders as a from of salve to the Chief. He is to fulfill the mission and keep his team safe. The wording of this standing order implies indifference toward anyone who is not part of his team or the mission. Perhaps before this incident the Chief had the benefit of reflecting on his own emotions before making a decision where lives were at stake.
I don't find that strange. If four beefy, spec-ops types were going to work me over, I would feel little or no remorse at cleaning their clock. I doubt they would care if Chief had been killed instead of them.
The argument about the differences between fighting insurrectionists, and all the politics that come with that enemy, versus an otherworldly alien race, is a valid one. But I submit to you ladies and gentlemen, that John117 sees only three ways to react to people.if superior obey, if part of his team help, if threat neutralize them, as seen on page 66 paragraph 1. He is in fact a killing(hurting) MACHINE. True Cortana gives him credit for NOT being a mindless killer when she first "meets" him but then she admonishes him after getting to know him by saying "This ring is not a cudgel, you barbarian." at the Assualt on the Control room.
To use Cortana's quote their is unfair, because, if I'm not mistaken, she had already been in the core and knew exactly how the ring worked. John didn't. He made a perfectly obvious assumption that ended up being wrong.

Sgt. Avery Johnson was one tough hombre. He braved the Covenant and the Flood with equal skill and determination, even a Spartan would be impressed by Sarge's resilience, he was often at the Chiefs side and as such was a de facto part of his TEAM. behold the pattern? I aslo believe that Sergeant Johnson may have gotten on the Chief's good side because he reminded Him of his earliest non-com CPO Franklin Mendez.
If John ALWAYS put the mission first, he would have sadly told Johnson that he had to leave him behind, but he didn't. John was ready to carry him out, even though that would drastically hurt his chances of success. It took Johnson to bring Chief back to reality and tell 117 to leave him behind. Chief, however, was ready to put Johnson before the mission. I think that says something.

On that note, here's something else about a SPARTANs ability to care or love. The Bible says that "Greater love hath no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friend." By that gauge, SPARTANs love their fellow man just as much or more than anyone else. Just because they don't express it on a personal level all the time doesn't make their love less strong. It's just different from ours.

Perhaps psychopathic killer is too conventional a term for Spartan 117 as some indicators of psychopathology don't quite suit him. Maybe maladjusted or hyper-lethal is a more PC way of saying killing machine in the future. But I contend there is no way that someone goes through what this poor man has and come through it psychologically intact.
I agree that maybe I just don't want to call 117 a psychopath, but I think my attitude in that regard is important. John is a type of all our men in uniform. When they come home from war, many are quick to slap a label on them as "unstable," "psychopath," or other things. These men gave the best years of their lives so we can live in peace, and all we can do is label them and recommend a good shrink. These men don't need a label. They need our understanding and patience on the job or at home.
So in short, I disagree that John-117 is a psychopath, but if he was, we can overlook his shortcomings when we think of what he gave us. A label isn't helping matters.
 

alix965

Well-Known Member
Sangheili, I think I'll be sending you that PM. Your point about our fighting men and women makes this subject a lot more sobering than I care to admit.

Also, I thought I was the only one who discussed how Lando had no hope of trying to save Han from his date with the carbonite. Or how it is that Major Motoko Kusanagi can be so damn sexy yet 99 percent machine or whether or not Oz was the name of the wizard or the name of the city.

As for you VENTRUE! I think we should talk this over a pint of lager and a nice cigar. I have no doubt that we could clear out a biergarten in NO time with our nerdy geekiness.
 

Garland

Member
I'm really surprised no one has mentioned Chief's relationship to Cortana. In Halo 3 it becomes extremely obvious that he sees her as far more than just a construct or a useful asset. For example, after retrieving that data chip thing from the Flood cruiser and hearing the message, Chief immediately wanted to go after her. Hood thought she was rampant and that it was trap (and all available evidence seemed to support that conclusion), yet at Chief's insistence, Hood sends a frigate (1 of 3 ships left in the entire UNSC fleet) away from Earth (the last known place with human life left). Chief knew how huge of a chance he was taking. And yes, the "solution" that would stop the Flood was certainly important, but that was not Chief's main motivation. Sure, that's conjecture, but from all the small things in that cutscene, I can't see it any other way.

You could also look at the scene towards the end of the Flood level, when Chief finally finds Cortana. That was an. . . intimate scene (for lack of a better term). Chief didn't act like he'd just find a useful tool that's gonna help him kill things and blow stuff up, he acted like he'd just saved someone he cared about.

And if you accept my argument that Chief cares for Cortana (maybe not love, but certainly a deep emotional attachment, and one he probably shouldn't have), that raised another very complicated question. Since Cortana is made from a clone of Halsey, does that mean Chief's attachment to Cortana is related to his feeling towards Halsey? It was mentioned before that Chief might have seperation anxiety since Halsey was like a mother figure. . . could Cortana have filled that void?

And if you think that Cortan did fill that void, then that raises yet another question: was John simply lucky, as Cortana said, or was he lucky because his relationship with Cortana had some unmeasurable effect on his psyche and thus combat effectiveness? If Cortana filled the void left by Halsey, could this alleviated the psychological problems of the other Spartans? A lot of the Spartan-IIs, when put in a position where they're probably gonna die (or are gonna die, like Jorge), they just accept it and go down fighting. Think about Chief and the bomb on Cairo station in Halo 2, and then think about Jorge and the slipspace bomb. Chief never once thought he was going to die, while Jorge did (yes, you can argue that the situations weren't exactly the same. . . but if Chief was in Jorge's situation, he would have used the timer from a frag grenade or something and then jumped out of the ship). And at the end of Ghosts of Onyx, when Kurt was doing his last stand thing at the slipspace portal-door. He knew he was gonna die, so he resolved himself to that fact and went down fighting. If that had been Chief, he would have been confident he was gonna kill them all and live, and likely would have. The will to live is an important thing to have. So is it possible that because Chief had Cortana, it gave him some kind of psychological boost that increased his chances of survival?

(I'm really tired at the moment, but I just saw this thread and had to respond. So if something needs a little clarification, let me know.)
 

Trooper114

Well-Known Member
I don't know why i forgot about Cortana. But yeah, its like, mama's always there even if she realy isn't type of thing.

Alix, i see that you are taking the oposite stance of this discussion. You have only pointed out the negative and even then get the negative that was soon covered by the positive. Chief is not a mindless rogue. If so why does he think? Why does he care for his friends? In Halo 3 you could see John's reaction to Johnson's injury and later death. He rushed to save him, sure he would have helped but even then i don't think he thought it completly through when he tried to rush over to Johnson's side. After the monitor was destroyed and John was with Johnson, he told him that he was going to get him out but Johnson refused. John didn't want Johnsons as a asset, he was to weak to even move, he wanted to save his friend. Did you see his posture, his body language? He was sad, he was mourning. Not because he lost someone who would help him get out. He could of done that by himself. He was sad because he lost some one he cared about, his friend or as i see him, more of a uncle figure, i would asume.
 
Sangheili, I think I'll be sending you that PM. Your point about our fighting men and women makes this subject a lot more sobering than I care to admit.

Also, I thought I was the only one who discussed how Lando had no hope of trying to save Han from his date with the carbonite. Or how it is that Major Motoko Kusanagi can be so damn sexy yet 99 percent machine or whether or not Oz was the name of the wizard or the name of the city.
I'll look forward to your PM! We haven't discussed the ones you posted, but I think you'll find it amusing!
 
Top