Soft Parts Under Armor Gel

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Howdy. The reasons that the U.S. military does not put STF technology into production are many. The biggest reasons are cost and reliability.
Reliability is a crucial point of any equipment used by the military. Though some products may perform better in perfect conditions, the contract will always go to the product that can do slightly less in the worst conditions. The point here is that STF may work in theory, practical application is plagued by field issues, ranging from weather and the enemy to a confused private who doesn't know how to take care of his gear.
The second reason is cost. Right now, the US Army is locked on a battle with senators who are not happy with the current M-16 and M-4 series rifles. While the senators and other political groups pressure the Army to upgrade their weapons to make them more reliable, an Army-wide change of small-arms weapons systems would be expensive to say the least. While the military must continually upgrade its weapons and armor to meet ever-rising threats, the current weapons and armor does the job well enough to justify saving money on better models. Suffice it to say that an armor design revolution would only occur if the proposed design would far surpass the current armor performance. I'll finish this later- I'm going to sleep.

P.S.- the ballistic gel used in Mythbusters is not meant to stop bullets as much as it is built to simulate ballistic effects on soft targets such as human tissue. This ballistic gel can't be used as armor, since it is more akin to a giant block of JELL-O.
smr312 said:
I don't know if this helps but I saw this on youtube a while ago but I think you could this as the Bullet proof stuff in your armor
its better than standard military armor and it can cover a lot more of you and it can stand up to more bullets at a time

Dragon Skin is available only to military and law enforcement. But excellent as it is, it is not without its flaws. Currently the Army is still reviewing the tests and data, and the police have suspended purchases due to specific weaknesses in the armor design. If you can't tell what the weakness is, then good- you don't need to know. Anywho, what would you do with it? It seems like overkill to me to get ballistic armor for paintball or airsoft, neither of which can completely penetrate the skin in the first place.
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MandoMan531 said:
the gel layer is also pressurized and able to regulaate pressure anywhere in the suit.
correct me if im wrong but as the suit monitors the Spartans vital signs, say a stray bullet got through a joint in the armor and wounded the Spartan. the suit can build pressure in that area to stop bleeding or to support a broken bone.

a Spartan would still be able to walk and run with a broken leg or ankle, since the armor is a exoskeleton linked into their neural synapses.

even in the books they explained that regular soldiers with only cyber links and no augmentations to their bone density or muscles tried to use thee suit and broke appendages due to the suit being able to assist movement before the actual body part could react to the brains instructions. so their arm moved so fast it broke inside the armor.

i KNOW i remeber reading this.

Just between you and me, I wouldn't trust a book by Eric Nylund. His technical expertise is only theoretical, and you could tell that he has no experience in the field. In my opinion, he is also a bit of a weak writer overall- weak characters, weak plot, weak story.
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xalener said:
Mabye the one in halo works through an electricl current.
Remember the halo 3 intro?
"His armor's locked up, sir." pushes a button and he limps up.
I think he means the green part can be locked in case he needs to be in a situation like when he fell from the ship in sierra 117.

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just a correction sorry if i sound like a the gel layer underneath the suit is for makes the actions so smooth of masterchief not stop bullets and as said earlier it is pressurized
The problem seems to stem from people assuming that there's one layer to the suit, which isn't the case, there's at least 5 layers to the suit in the books, from outward to inward:

The metal plating on the outside
The Hydrostatic gel
the AI memory crystal network
the reactive liquid-metal
and the skin-adhering layer for comfort

The metal on the outside keeps the suit hardened from atmospheric pressure changes(like the vacuum of space), armored, and whatnot.

The hydrostatic gel isn't generally used for armor, but can be exploited as such. It's primary purpose is the distribute vast tempature and pressure changes, so when hit or shot with plasma, it would distribute the energy helping keep damage to a minimum. It also is used for keeping pressure on wounded areas to minimized damage(note, this would not let you walk even if your knee has exploded to peices, it's more so if you have a fractured bone, it would help minimize the shifting, allowing you to make at least a passable speed).

The memory layer is self explanatory.

The reactive liquid-metal is a seperate layer, and according to the books isn't 100% covering, it's more likely in 'bands' or sections similar to a muscle-overlay. So when a 'muscle group' of the stuff reacts, it moves a proper segment of the armor. Think of how bugs move, since their bodies are set up similarly. The muscles adhere to the external structure since they don't have internal bones.

and the skin-adhereing layer keeps tempature at skin-level comfortable, keeps it conformed to the body, and pulls away moisture to keep the wearer as comfortable as possible.

Condensing all that down into a handful of centimeters is not gunna really be all thta feasible at the moment, disregarding the tech required.

Artificial muscle stuffs are workable, such as memory-metal motors, so the reactive layer would work if you got sensors along certain muscle groups to intercept the nerve pulses(akin to the Japanese model of the exosuit, which does exactly what i described)

The hyrdostatic layer would be incredibly hard to do properly. You would need a thermally inert material that can be forced to comrpess and pressurize on command(figuring you had a computer to control it)

The comfort-layer wouldn't be too hard all in all, there's sports wear that moisture-wicks so then it's just a matter of tempature control.
This would be the most feasible layer to put into a suit all in all, since the tech is pretty simplistic and it wouldn't harbor much space.

On the 'gel layer locking up'.
It is, in fact, the internal hydrostatic gel layer. When impacting something at a high velocity, you would red-line pressureize the layer which would force the body to lock into a position on impact, which would force-distribute the impact energy. This means that the sheilds, armor nad bones would likely take the brunt of the force, but since energy distribution takes the weakest-link first, you'd run an incredible risk of taking massive internal damage, which is why Johnson gave cheif a hard time.
There's no doubt the armor would have made it, but if you liquidate the insides of the person, it doens't matter how resiliant their skeleton is.
The reason it would have locked up is likely a failsafe, since cheif obviously lost conciousness for at least a certain period of time, when the gel layer overpressured for the impact, him getting kocked out likely locked it down so that he wouldn't take any more damage untill he was awake again(though they obviously could override this when the marines got there)

From what i'd head, the biggest problem with Dragonskin is that the glue/adheisive used to keep the plates in place weakens in higher tempatures, which makes the armor non-feasible over the desert regions. And producing two-types of armor is horribly cost in-effective, which is why they're not using it at the moment.
As for using it in your undersuit armor, no, not really.
While it's true it's flexible, it's nowhere near as flexible as you're thinking. The disks are still at least an inch diameter, which means that while it works great for minimal bending around the waist area, the torso also largely stays the same shape otherwise. Putting that stuff around your leg would over-bulk you a lot, which negates the whole point of having flexible armor in the first place.
One could theoretically build that into the inside of the outer armor plating, which would work alot better, and maybe put it into the torso area, but you wouldn't be covering the whole suit in that stuff.
If you *had* to do the whole body, you're best bet is STFs, and as d1omede5, it's not quite mature enough yet for 'field' usage.
The only thing I have time to type before my eyes give out is that at best, any of this is a simple theory for at least (and this is optimism to the highest degree) 50 years.

Eric Nylund took a lot of liberties in writing FoR.
an easier way to diffuse the force of the bullet within the gel layer is to look to things that are already employed within our own wide world of sports. Some years back, Brine - a lacrosse armorer - came out with a shoulder pad design that used beads, kind of like the type you'd find in a bean bag or a hackey sack, instead of using the standard foam. The idea is that when you get hit with the other person's stick (either in the event of a cross check or a slash) the impact would have a ripple effect that would disperse the force over a larger part of the armor. This is due to the fact that the armor is a particulate layer instead of a solid foam pad which effectively transfers the force from one pellet to the next. The blow is therefore lessened considerably because the armor absorbs about 70%-90% of the impact force that is transferred into it. Medieval chainmaille armor worked in a similar way, although not quite as effectively as the bean bag system. Something like this could be employed with the MJOLINR system underneath the gel layer which may be why the Chief stands a whopping 7'2" in all of his armor; this diffusion system would probably have to be around 1/2 to 1 inch thick in order to work properly.
Sup guys.

On the shields: It is currently known that plasma is capable of being formed and manipulated by magnets. Thats how they keep it from melting the glass tubes they make it in , also, when metals and energy are introduced, they vaporize/ distribute, but this weakens the plasma in that spot, because of the liss of heat and the introduction of disruptive elements. The problem now is that it takes a physical ring of magnets to contain. The suit has one that, i think, is contained by a magnetic field generated from within the suit, and containing a plasma based from the elements surrounding the wearer, so that one would not need to carry any other materials, the heating to create plasma would be done by ither the field itslef, or the heat from the internal systems. This reactivity also explains why the shield drains. The plasma gets thin, and the computer compensates by temporarly shutting it off to allow the electromagnetic charge and plasma to build to full strength.

On the ceramic: The ceramic/ metal alloy mentioned in Fall of Reach is really a tri- layer system. the outside layer is a soft, absorbant metal,which contains the second layer and flattens the bullet. The second layer is a kind of dragon skin on steroids, a shark tooth like system where manymany small plates flex and break, doing the main stopping, and when one breaks, others slide into place, thus the need for what appear to be vents below the main sholder vents where the hinge for the chest piece is. Its acess to the middle shark tooth layer. The third layer would be a metal aken to that used on tanks and would stop what by now would be only fragments, so it too dose not hav to be thick.

On the gell: this material is yet uninvented, however i think this is possible: A gel that changes density based on electric current. For example, in the H3 start cutscene, The armor is "locked up' I dont think this is from any specal introduction of power, rather a lack of it. The shields used in re-entry drained the power source. We all know electric current excites atoms. The gell works because when current is introduced, the atoms in the gell are excited, the material becones gell like. When there is no current to excite the atoms, they slow down, causing the material to harden. This would allow a computer, equipped with density sensors, other feeds and electric current producers placed all over the suit, to "lock" and "un lock" any area at will. The modulation of the current would also allow for any consistancy desired, not just soft or hard.

The undersuit: THis "cling layer" would be the real answer to heat control. it would be one big baloon, with two layers. A liquid that absorbed heat very well would be between them, allowing the ability to regulate temperature. also, this liquid would be under pressure, keeping the material close to the skin and acting as a pressure suit, keeping the wearer at one constant pressure, unaffected by the outside pressure. As for heat signature, well why do you think MC is only off radar when hec crouching? Plasma shield OFF and body heat centralized to allow for maximum cooling potental. The layer cannot eleminate the shield energy, nor cany anything, another layer of energy around the plasme would be visible somehow, i think the Spartan answer to heat is good old silent stelth, cause when ur sneaken around, you shouldnt need shields of any kind, cause then u wouldnt be sneeking, would u?

Last comments: still puzzling over the brains and the power source, but il get back to you all on that
Also please excuse any typos, its 1:37AM rite now in paris, where im stayn.
the power source is a miniaturized fusion generator.

Also the Chief can lock down parts of his armour at will because in one of the books it's stated that the Chief locked his hand armound an Elite's wrist.
I always dreamed that the best armor would be made of layers, top layer is metal, next sheets of metal going horizontally, then carbon fiber, the Kevlar, then finally ballistics foam (the guy that made the bear suit invented it).
Spawn Camp3r said:
I always dreamed that the best armor would be made of layers, top layer is metal, next sheets of metal going horizontally, then carbon fiber, the Kevlar, then finally ballistics foam (the guy that made the bear suit invented it).

i just watched that youtube video last night! give that guy a contract!
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the bullet resistant armor that the army uses is made out of a lot of layers that you just mentioned but no metal, it is ceramic due to it being lighter and provides more of an impulse. there is also a hydrostatic gel piece that can be purchased to be placed on the back of the plates to provide even more impulse and comfort
Munson20 said:
I have always been fascinated by Halo armor, and Since Ive been on this site, I have been extra fascinated. I have especially been fascinated by the suit in which Master Chief wears. Lets discuss the gel layer under the metal. I understand it can block bullets but what exactly is it? Can is be found in our world? How thick is it, and what is its ability to move and be comfertable over a human. Also, what part actually touches the skin? Wouldnt it make soar and stuff?

I have been thinking about this for a while, couldn't people now adays make this under gel which can block bullets so you barely feel it?

This is my idea. First you make an outside layer, this is the actuall part that stops the bullets. This would be made out of stf (shear thickening fluid) coated kevlar. Then, since this would still hurt to be hit by, you make an under layer which actually gives with the bullet to make the impulse (stopping time) much higher. This part could be a strong rubber, 2cm thick with a foam layer in between that. Now, all you need it to make the parts where it bends thinner, for more comfort. In the inside however, I would make an adhesive layer which clung to the skin, and bent with the skin without making soars and what not. In the end, you could apply metal to even further stop bullets, but I would think this would work. All you need is a cooling system to breath in the suit.

First, sorry to necro this one up, but I think I can help you out a bit with this.

The technology does exist, but it is actually in the developmental stages with MIT and DARPA.

The gel liquid you are referring to is a non-Newtonian liquid, much like cornstarch. When a sudden force is applied to the liquid, the liquid itself reacts as a solid, dispersing the energy. So, for instance, if you were to drop a bowling ball into a bucket of the liquid, it would be like dropping the ball against a hardened surface. Once the energy from the initial contact disperses however, the liquid in the vat returns to it's liquid state, and the bowling ball would begin to sink.

The idea is to combine this liquid with layering of Kevlar bi-weaves, and even with spider-silk (which is reportedly up to 100 times stronger than industrial steel), in creating a new type of lightweight armor plate. The problem however, is the liquid currently is not dispersing enough of the kinetic energy or reducing the bullet's speed fast enough to prevent it from puncturing the armor. Hopefully though, they will have an answer to that soon.

Hope this helps fuel your imagination and inspiration, because personally, these sort of technological breakthroughs that put us closer and closer to having one of these suits ACTUALLY being produced by the military or private sectors, makes me study up on the subjects that much more, in hopes of maybe being able to do some work on one someday.

If you want, PM me and I can send you some info on more research like this that's been going on through DARPA and the military. You might be interested in the Land Warrior project that the U.S. Army has been working on over the last 2 years.

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after reading these i have a thought...

the way i'd Design the armour is as follows:

hard parts for the inflexible parts. (chest shins, for arms etc)

and for the Joints perhaps use kevlar coated with the stuff that makes i more solid when fired on.

but the main reason i can't get any Feasable ideas for total protection is i don't know how much force the strongest weapon we have can produce...

if someone could give me that kind of information, i think we'd be able to figure out which gel would be best in terms of elasticity and yeild points etc.
Leo said:

after reading these i have a thought...

the way i'd Design the armour is as follows:

hard parts for the inflexible parts. (chest shins, for arms etc)

and for the Joints perhaps use kevlar coated with the stuff that makes i more solid when fired on.

but the main reason i can't get any Feasable ideas for total protection is i don't know how much force the strongest weapon we have can produce...

if someone could give me that kind of information, i think we'd be able to figure out which gel would be best in terms of elasticity and yeild points etc.

Google "ballistics chart" or a specific caliber and do some digging. The charts will give you velocity and force upon impact in lbs/feet generally. That should help you.

If you can calculate to stop .50 caliber rounds, you'll be good through most small arms and crew serve weapons. But that is a lot of energy to disperse.

You might want to think a little more on the joints though, because right now, straight Kevlar bi weave will not be enough to stop, or even ricochet small arms fire. The reason the bi weave works so well is that it is chemically fused into a ceramic.

To get some ideas, I'd suggest getting some books on old medieval armor and look at them. Overlapping plates at the joints would provide the protection but at the trade off of some mobility and speed.

Just hang in there and do some research. The technology is probably out there already, we just have to put the right pieces together in the right order to get it to work.
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Spartan-058 said:
For example, in the H3 start cutscene, The armor is "locked up' I dont think this is from any specal introduction of power, rather a lack of it. The shields used in re-entry drained the power source

the reason why the armor 'locks up' is because the armor has intelligent technology that shuts down all systems in the armor tho preserve the user after a large force is exerted on it, like john's/ sierra 117/ master chiefs crash landing, not from lack of power.
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