Pepakura Ethics (Or Is It Ok To Make Moulds/bucks From Pep Files?)

Belakor

Well-Known Member
Spartan 051 said:
... I have more of a problem with people ripping game content an calling it there on pep models that to me is "recasting" they are taking credit for a models they did not make all they did was rip and unfold.


Personally I would go one step further and say that all game ripped models could be referred to as "recasting".You're taking someone else's work (the game devs), extracting it in a way that they never intended and using it for a purpose it was never meant to be used for.



That's one of the main reasons I dumped all my pep files based of game models, when I started I posted them with the intention of it being a stopgap solution, that is they were there to get people started and building until someone came along with the skill to make them specifically for pep from scratch. Now though it seems most people's first thought is to rip it and be done, instead of learning to model themselves (which is a really useful skill) or getting someone with the skill to do it for them (whether that means paying them os up to the modeler).
 
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SchizophrenicMC

Well-Known Member
I can compare Pepakura to camping. Sure, hardened pros don't like it, because they learned their own, harder methods. However, it's a good strategy that works and can bring new people into the art.



I've never seen 2 pepakura works come out exactly the same, and in the end, it's up to the builder to decide how he puts his props together, and what customizations he makes. For example, myself. I'm using a low-def model of the ODST helmet, and leaving out the detailed ridges. I'm also gonna try to cobble a comms pack together, in an integrated unit with the sniper goggles. Sure, I'm using someone else's pep files, but I'm making this, my own.



People who bag on pepakura, a tool, are really ignorant, in my opinion. If I was them, I'd be glad to use any tool afforded me. Indeed, they don't know as much as we do, nor appreciate it as much, because the 405th, and all its members, were of the first to use it extensively for prop-making. We're among the only ones who accept it, at all, really. In prop-building communities, it's considered to be evil, and in papercrafting communities, it's considered sub-par. However, the best home-made props I've seen (Aside from LeeKegan's work) were made here, using pepakura as a base. Even those who build the same model have different results, and even those who buy casts do different things.



Unless someone takes someone's physical work, and physically pumps out mass-produced crap, of lower quality than the original, and sells these sub-par products, I don't call it recasting. Because any other way, there's room for customization. When you customize, it becomes your own.



That's my 2 cents. I'll pay my buck-oh-three later.
 

Spartan 051

Well-Known Member
Belakor said:
Personally I would go one step further and say that all game ripped models could be referred to as "recasting".You're taking someone else's work (the game devs), extracting it in a way that they never intended and using it for a purpose it was never meant to be used for.



That's one of the main reasons I dumped all my pep files based of game models, when I started I posted them with the intention of it being a stopgap solution, that is they were there to get people started and building until someone came along with the skill to make them specifically for pep from scratch. Now though it seems most people's first thought is to rip it and be done, instead of learning to model themselves (which is a really useful skill) or getting someone with the skill to do it for them (whether that means paying them os up to the modeler).


but the problem modeling requires work an people dont want to do the work themselfs



Though i find with rip models is that there to low ploy an you spend more time fixing then if you would start from images



SchizophrenicMC said:
I can compare Pepakura to camping. Sure, hardened pros don't like it, because they learned their own, harder methods. However, it's a good strategy that works and can bring new people into the art.



I've never seen 2 pepakura works come out exactly the same, and in the end, it's up to the builder to decide how he puts his props together, and what customizations he makes. For example, myself. I'm using a low-def model of the ODST helmet, and leaving out the detailed ridges. I'm also gonna try to cobble a comms pack together, in an integrated unit with the sniper goggles. Sure, I'm using someone else's pep files, but I'm making this, my own.



People who bag on pepakura, a tool, are really ignorant, in my opinion. If I was them, I'd be glad to use any tool afforded me. Indeed, they don't know as much as we do, nor appreciate it as much, because the 405th, and all its members, were of the first to use it extensively for prop-making. We're among the only ones who accept it, at all, really. In prop-building communities, it's considered to be evil, and in papercrafting communities, it's considered sub-par. However, the best home-made props I've seen (Aside from LeeKegan's work) were made here, using pepakura as a base. Even those who build the same model have different results, and even those who buy casts do different things.



Unless someone takes someone's physical work, and physically pumps out mass-produced crap, of lower quality than the original, and sells these sub-par products, I don't call it recasting. Because any other way, there's room for customization. When you customize, it becomes your own.



That's my 2 cents. I'll pay my buck-oh-three later.


camping take no skill all you do is find a well traveled spot sit with shotgun an wait that sure tuff the only reason you win because you have a one shot an you always get the first shot.



So you think ripping someone 3d work an ran calling it your own isnt stealing?
 
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Boba Fett

Well-Known Member
if I made a pep file, and someone made a mold of it, I wouldn't have a problem. If he sold a few copies, made a few dollars, I still wouldn't have a problem, as long as I got credit for the base of the model. Now, if that person starts making TONS of copies, and makes a lot of money (not really likely) then I would be a bit annoyed, but he did something I did not, he took that pep file and made it into something. I may not like it, but he has the right. Rube's ODST helmet was a work of art, but based off a pep file. Nobody seemed to have a problem with that. I really don't think it is a problem, as long as A. you give the original modeler credit, and B. the modeler consents to you making the mold. Now if you're making it for your own purposes only, never to be sold, I really don't see any issue at all. Just give the person who make the file credit, and you're fine. That's my take, because putting the pep together allows you to do something you Can't do in a 3d program, Make it real.
 

AceHigh

Member
Just to be clear, I am not claiming that pepakura is something magical that produces movie quality props without a lot of post pep work. I am claiming that it is far from something "simple" or "just a base". It is a base, but an excellent one.
 

Boba Fett

Well-Known Member
AceHigh said:
Just to be clear, I am not claiming that pepakura is something magical that produces movie quality props without a lot of post pep work. I am claiming that it is far from something "simple" or "just a base". It is a base, but an excellent one.


I agree with you. It also depends on the level of modeler. your Jorge files are INSANE with detail. Seriously, an expert pepper could probably brush on a layer of fiberglass resin to the outside, some bond glazing putty, and that's as accurate as it gets. other files require more in not a LOT of work. It is only an excellent base with an excellent modeler. The couple of models I have attempted (ok, failed at, lol) are pathetic, and really would take so much time an effort to make accurate that it is in the sculpting area. Most pep files ARE just a skeleton, but the more time invested by the modeler makes it better. HAve you noticed that there have been like 4 different iron man helmets in the last 2 months? All trying to be more accurate... Now, how about a vac-forming buck? take the FS mk. VI helmet. If I pep it, glass it, then bondo it. How about a visor? If I want to vac-form it, that visor is designed to fit THAT helmet. I see no issue, as long as FS has no issues.
 
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TMP

New Member
Well well... Here i am... Let me start by saying i am honored to be on this board but saden by the situation.



What i am most sad about is that this situation is that 2 people i highly respected in regards of artist, creativity and behavior have decided to chose to select and to insinuate and totaly ignore my explenation to this beeing a misunderstanding. I tried to reach out to explain that my intrest was in getting a debate about guidelines of how boardmembers (common intrest replica prop baords) can have "rules" code of conduct to be guided after. I know that pepeakura is revolutionary and it has some fantastic advantages as i seen on Finheads and Stealth suits. I never said that they were recasters. It was my lack of written grammer and building up a text that caused that out of context and Finhead chose to make a big issue of it, even ignoring my honest aproach to expalin to him what happend. I even tried 4 times to invite to a phone conversation to resolve but just got a fist back in the face.



As pr today there are many unanswerd, unchalanged questions regarding pepakura. Sculpting art has for a longer period gone trough trail and error and had manny issues with how we look upon sculptors art and how we in comunity by guidelines know how to look at sistuations like recast or modifed parts. These are questions never raised for pepakura since 1. The files are free, 2. The builder makes it from a themeplate. 3. The themplate is modified. Now here is were some of the challanges comes. If a person recast the papakura armor that the builder have made.. Is this ok...? Is it ok for the builder to mass produce the parts and sell them? Is that ok for the file maker? In regards of the 3D modeler how is it looked upon if a 3D modelar takes line trace original art as licenced piece or custom fan made props and make up 3D files for CNC or Pepakura? I am asking these questions because i think they should be evaualted and considerd as there are two different trades of methods in making these props and somewere down the line they can conflict. These conflicts can be avoided if we take a debate, and evaluate the guidelines, POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE sides.





I taken allot of time to form this letter, and i hope it does not offend anyone as i wrote in my initial tread.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



THIS IS WHAT I ORIGINALLY WROTE:



I think i have to agree with http://www.siwdat.com stance on this.

If we dont put any drawn lines on this, how can we draw lines on the other creations out there beeing modified and copied.

This is a question nobody in pepakura area answerd yet.. I am asking a question to raise a debate on how can we define the rules. I am not pointing fingers on ANYONE.



The rule on SIWDAT is: NOTE THIS IS WERE I MESSED UP QUOTING



1.A

If an existing prop, licened or fanmade is altered, modified or resculpted on top of an existing peice and it is not made moulds of to recast it is considerd as a personal project. The moment the armor is moulded to replicate and offerd it is regarded as modified recast peice.

This is a general to all trades... Sculpting and paper... This is probably here it went wrong. I tried to Quote SIWDATS guidelines that say if you copy/ modify a Pepakura armor that someone buildt and make several parts to sell its a recast.. The intent is to cover for the hard work of the builder...



1.B

In regards of Pepakura.. The instant the peices is moulded to make several casts it becomes a "recast" peice in my opinion.

Pepakure also count in this factor. If anyone recast a pepakura or as described above in 1.A



Pepakura falls in a category that is hard to pinpoint. Because they can take and outline the details by lines from ANY photo reffrence and turn it into a 3D. This is one of the reasons the Warmachine was adopted so fast due to Hottoys/ Sideshow Photos showing it from all the angles.

This is no secret, I am mearly explaining that any prop with todays tecnology falls into a grey area.. How do we define protection of original or sculptural art



The pep file have primarly followed the original lines.

The big difference is that the file is offerd for free. If this was charged for we would probalby say it was LINES CAST OF... or something.

Again i asked for guidelines, termenology and also definission of words describing the variouse methods.



I dont intend to offend any papakura makers, because i do admire their dedication and hard work. I do in fact look forward seeing allot of these suits finished. Though i made it very clear this was not against the file maker or the builder... But i guess this section was overlooked due to the negative feedback it got.



But we have to have guidelines of this, one or the other way.

ONCE AGAIN ... I am saying we sould have some guidelines for pepakura as all other sculptural trades have. Easy for the formum mebers to know the "rules" of fan made sculptural work, licenced prop/ replica and recast issues... How can we protect the hard work of member like FINHEAD or STEALTH or OUR work..??



THE ISSUE...

I know if we made a CUSTOM sculpt and shown it from all angles that could been replicated with Pepakura 3D programs in a day.

Then to shortly after se the pepakura file maker offer it for free and tell that anyone can use it to what they want.... That would not be ok with us. I dont belive it would be with any other either.

ONCE AGAIN... I am reaching out to get a constructive debate in regards of both trades. NOT TO HANG ANYONE... Reason i ask is because we want to make a custom armored variation... without guidelines and support from a comunity how can we dare to make several month of work to then se it recast. If the stance is that anything can be recast of pepfiles or custom creation then the freesculptor is dead.



I hope this make sence from the sculptors point of stance.

I hoped this would be understood from the sculptors stance...





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THIS BELLOW IS WHAT I TRIED TO WRITE/ QUOTE IN THE ABOVE TEXT. THIS BELLOW IS FROM THE SIWDAT GUIDELINES, BUT I MESSED UP THE BUILDING OF THE TEXT SO WRONG IT GOT UNDERSTOOD WRONG.

THE BELLOW ARE COPY OF SIWDAT RULES... NOWERE DOES IT SAY PEPAKURA IS RECAST.. I NEVER SAID IT IS.. I WANTED DEBATE ABOUT CONSTRUCTIVE GUIDELINES TO PROTECT BOTH PEPAKURA WORK AND SCULPTURE WORK.... WITHOUT THESE GUIDELINES ANYONE CAN COPY LIKE FOR INSTANT STEALTH, FINHEADS, TMP ARMOR AND NOTHING ON THAT BOARD CAN ENFORCE IT RIGHT DUE TO LACK OF GUIDELINES... ...


THIS IS WHAT I TRIED TO QUOTE FROM SIWDATS RULES..:




Selling/trading of recast items

Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community. Selling freely distributed paper props is considered a digital form of recasting. This includes Pepakura files.



The term Recast falls into category if the piece has been:

A. Directly recast of original licensed piece or Original fanmade art.

B. Retooled and modified prop over an existing licensed piece or fanmade art.



Recast falls into category when a Pepakura prop that already had been modified, finished, cleaned and detailed has been recast directly of the piece, or modified.

Pepakura files public available for download does not go in under this category IF the maker can show progress photos of the assembly and finish of the Pepakura armor.





Fanmade falls in under the category if the piece has:

A. Been sculpted by hand from scratch.

B. Assembled by hand from scratch.



Category: Private collection, Fanmade VS Recast:

Any alteration, improvement, re-sculpting of existing prop counts as recast if the piece is moulded and replicated. If the alteration, improvement or re-sculpting is for personal improvement of personal collection this does not go in under the category of recast.

NOTE! The instant the piece is offered for sale or numerous pieces moulded, cast and then sold this will result in permanent Bann and public announcement warning.



SIWDAT values artistic creativity, but not for people to steal other members hard work. The time and efforts put into a piece shall be respected and honoured by members at all time. Any suspicion of intent of recast will result in immediate temporarily suspension and strike. The sculptor/ maker have to prove sculptural progress photos of their original work. If this can not be provided and proved guilty of recasting the member will be permanently banned and public announcement will be posted in the forum.



If anyone believes their item has been recast by a member, they are encouraged to provide proof to the SIWDAT Staff.



Selling/trading of live firearms or readily converted firearms

The sale or trade of live firearms is strictly prohibited on the site. The sale or trade of deactivated firearms is permitted only if the item in question has been rendered completely non-functional as described under the applicable laws of BOTH the buyer and seller’s home country/state/province.



.................................



ONCE AGAIN MY INTENTION WAS NEVER TO CALL ANYONE RECASTER.

I hope i one day will be able to speak with both Finhead and Stealth..

I though they knew my carracter and how i treat and respect members.

I would not encourage or support either of them if i did not like them. Somehow people i considerd as friends just beat the hell out of me. To sad.. But hey my hand is still reached out.. I am still up for that phone conversation.
 
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kupokitty

Well-Known Member
AceHigh said:
Simple? So the efforts of modellers spending dozens of hours perfecting pep files are useless, seeing how simple pepakura is? It's rather funny how many people out there seem completely helpless without pepakura given that fact. I'm glad I don't share my files any more though, seeing how simple they are.




I never said useless. Just the concept of pepakura armor is simple. It's like the foundation of a house, creating a base point on which to build more things, like floors and doors and things. Pep Modelers make life easier for people because of the amount of detail that goes into that base. I'm sorry if I sounded insulting. >:
 
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AceHigh

Member
Queen said:
I never said useless. Just the concept of pepakura armor is simple. It's like the foundation of a house, creating a base point on which to build more things, like floors and doors and things. Pep Modelers make life easier for people because of the amount of detail that goes into that base. I'm sorry if I sounded insulting. >:
You never did say useless, but the way you put it made it sound like a pepakura file is something that is extremely easy to produce. I'm really edgy when it comes to comments like that, seeing how so many people across the forums treat modellers like some kind of slaves that should do whatever bidding they ask demand. It really bugs the hell out of me that so many people really can't do jack **** without pepakura, yet they expect perfect files and complain when modellers won't do their every request. I'm not saying you are like that, but too many people are.
 
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TMP

New Member
AceHigh said:
You never did say useless, but the way you put it made it sound like a pepakura file is something that is extremely easy to produce. I'm really edgy when it comes to comments like that, seeing how so many people across the forums treat modellers like some kind of slaves that should do whatever bidding they ask demand. It really bugs the hell out of me that so many people really can't do jack **** without pepakura, yet they expect perfect files and complain when modellers won't do their every request. I'm not saying you are like that, but too many people are.


I think i understand you. We exepreinced to give all details of the sculpt.. Some people even demand to get all facts and details. They dont ask kindly, they demand it. This is very sad indeed.



And what i also understand is that the person above gives an explenation that he did mean it to come out the way it did. If he is english and he can make a mistake, then please guys understand that my true intention with what is first refferd was only good intention.



I tried to explain my inentions was only to se if we could get a constructive comunity debate on how we can have guidelines within the replica prop comuinty. I nevver looked at pepakurea as recast and i find it hard to belive that Finhead could belive i did, based on all the great dialogs we had in the future. But someone just love to find flaws in people and rub salt in the wound. Feels like a good freiends hits you in the face on impulse of misunderstanding.



All i wanted was to express that i agree and support SIWDATS Guidelines that provides a rule of of what is defined as recasting if it is the medium of pepapkura along side with sculptor work and to provide support of the builder/ sculptor of the armor creations.



I belive we all got the same intrest, and that is to provide cover the hard work of the builders creations. REGARDLESS.
 
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I feel that it depends on how much the person is selling them for. If the person that has made the molds is selling the privately for an unreasonable profit it would be disgraceful to have used someone else pep files. Although, if they were making the molds and selling them for the price they paid to make them with maybe $5 bucks thrown in for a little man hours I feel that it would be okay.
 

TMP

New Member
This is what i am trying to say. We all share some different ideas but there are no guidelines to follow its just feeling and guessing. For people whos intend is to profiter from others hard work se this as an opening, and entering and taking advantage of the situation. Is it not better to have guidelines that forst of all protects the people who done the hard work in the first place bulding, assembling, and making, even add "protection" to the 3D sculptors so not other steal their hard work.



Overall i want debate and constructive talks and formulation of how we can deal with the variouse issues that are in grey areas of the trade.
 
being new to this site, I am really surprised that modelers even bother with making and releasing them for free just for pep. I for one am very grateful for all there hard work. I have doodled with blender so I can vouch for the difficulty of making models. I would never cast without their permission (not that I know how...) although I was considering making a suit to sell for charity for my senior project. Anyway all I'm saying is that we should respect the wishes of the modeler, it's the least we can do for all there hard work.
 

mattmann1

Member
In my opinion (I am neither very good at making suits or making 3d models but I am learning and improving fast in each subject) If someone wanted to sell some pieces based off pep models I made I would want them to ask me first. I am fine with selling them (in small numbers and would not want more then 3-5 in existence) just so long as they ask the modeler first then I think we could avoid conflict. So just don't anger the modelers, I have seen lots of people leave this site because they were re-casted and were sick of it. If they see it as recasting to sell a piece from there pep model then don't. Modelers are important to most of us lets not anger them and we always should respect them.
 
Squirtle117 said:
In my opinion (I am neither very good at making suits or making 3d models but I am learning and improving fast in each subject) If someone wanted to sell some pieces based off pep models I made I would want them to ask me first. I am fine with selling them (in small numbers and would not want more then 3-5 in existence) just so long as they ask the modeler first then I think we could avoid conflict. So just don't anger the modelers, I have seen lots of people leave this site because they were re-casted and were sick of it. If they see it as recasting to sell a piece from there pep model then don't. Modelers are important to most of us lets not anger them and we always should respect them.


completely agree
 
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TMP

New Member
Alex spartan177 said:
I bet this discussion is going to change some things around here


To the better or worse.. Til death do us part :p



I think having guidelines is good for all.
 
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Boba Fett

Well-Known Member
TMP said:
To the better or worse.. Til death do us part :p



I think having guidelines is good for all.


I think we HAVE guidelines, they're just unwritten. Most people who at are a level to make props from pep and mold them usually know what's going on. It's something of an unwritten law, but is usually up to the person's judgment. so far I don;t think there have been many issues with a person molding someone's pep and selling it without credit, but I'm not sure...
 
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The problem I'm seeing is that people are claiming "It was released for free."

Yes, true these files are released for free for personal use. To make your prop/armor/whatyamacallit.



I see people that do all of the work to make the finished piece look awesome then turn around and sell pulls.

To me this is wrong, I understand you put X amount of time into it but it's not yours to make money off of.



Here's MY reason



Yes you put X amount of hours * X amount of resin/bondo/paint/silicon, which = your time and money



But here is what it doesn't = Money in your pocket. Why because with out your FREE file you would be left with a sticky pile of painted goo.



3D Modeling is one of the harder forms of creation. You are building an object in a virtual space making sure everything fits together is a lot harder then say a clay sculpt which has it's own set of problems. Both of which I have done so I'm not speaking out my backside.



If the molder says that it is fine to sell pulls based of their model that is great go ahead.

But when people say it was released for free so I can do what ever with it that is wrong. Everyone has a breaking point and modelers will stop releasing for free if everyone keeps kicking them in the junk so to speak.



People look down on pep for the same reason people look down on rednecks. It's never the great one's you see. It's always the zero effort glued, a little resin, painted(usually bright look at me colors) making the Rubies suit look awesome ones that everyone sees.



Should there be ethics rules when dealing with PEP files yes there should be. Is it going to help a very tiny bit.
 
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