Pepakura Ethics (Or Is It Ok To Make Moulds/bucks From Pep Files?)

dung0beetle

Well-Known Member
Get permission. If the original artist says no, then it is unethical. If the original artist says it's ok, then no problems. It's no different than hanging out behind Tmp's house waiting for him to toss a bad cast into the trash can so you can recast it. Taking credit for another person's work is bad in whatever form whether it is selling a recast without permission or selling a vac-formed pull from a pepakura buck without permission.



My apologies for using Tmp as an example, I mean no disrespect.





















I hid behind the trash can for 3 days and nothing :(
 
OK, I have rewritten this twice now. This is the "nice" version, I don't take kindly to hypocrisy. The following is my opinion and only my opinion.



TMP, while I do respect your attempt to make ethics rules regarding pep it is utterly misplaced. The prop community ethics flows very deep in this site. We also have some unwritten community rules as do all sites. The 405th is the premier pepakura prop making site but it wasn't always this way. Originally the pep files were rough because it takes time to learn how to model, it is not a simple trace and print exercise. Secondly the builders weren't up to the level of finish that could compare to free sculpted models. Fast forward and we have attracted some very talented modelers and builders but it still isn't a trace and print operation. Try to make a full Ironman pep armor then comeback and explain to this community that our work is just recasting.



As far as rules go, you do have some interesting ideas about protecting ones unique designs. You want to make sure your hard work isn't copied from pictures correct? So who's unique armor did you copy to make your Ironman suit? Unless you are Shane Mahan you have copied his studios hard work to create a unique suite. If we were to apply some of your ideas on ethics your suit wouldn't be allow nor would any replica props on any site. Now I know your want these rules to pertain to pepakura only but that is a double standard and is once again disgracing the modelers, the builders, and the community here. This all the more exemplified by your suit existence which is a clay sculpt, not a pep file, that was copied from the movie, which was someone elses's design and hard work. So the difference between you copying someones hard work is the medium in which you copy their work, once again hypocrisy and insulting to the members of this site.



The real issue is that pep can provide and extremely good base for further modeling and detailing. This is further compounded by the fact that anyone can download and start making these files (unless the modeler charges for them, which is their choice). Your site SIWDAT is built on the foundation of being elitist, ether you have amazing armor or we don't know you. The 405th's community is exactly the opposite keep that in mind when your trying to influence the rules regarding a form of art which you don't practice. If your worried about losing your unique art then don't post them online, keep them in your workshop and wear them around. Should you choose to post them then be prepared for someone to be "inspired" by you work and ether make a freehand sculpt or a pep from it. Other wise send a letter to Marvel with your home address, a picture of "your" armor, and a price. Though, be prepared to get your door kicked in because you do not own your Ironman armor, Marvel owns the rights to the design.



You don't want people to copy your designs and work, yet you are famous for copying people's designs and work (by your own definition). Tell us again in simple clear context what rules you want us to shackle the pepakura community with, a community which you do not belong to and which you compete with as a prop maker. Now, get off my lawn .
 

Tyvern

Well-Known Member
Gremlin117 said:
OK, I have rewritten this twice now. This is the "nice" version, I don't take kindly to hypocrisy. The following is my opinion and only my opinion.



TMP, while I do respect your attempt to make ethics rules regarding pep it is utterly misplaced. The prop community ethics flows very deep in this site. We also have some unwritten community rules as do all sites. The 405th is the premier pepakura prop making site but it wasn't always this way. Originally the pep files were rough because it takes time to learn how to model, it is not a simple trace and print exercise. Secondly the builders weren't up to the level of finish that could compare to free sculpted models. Fast forward and we have attracted some very talented modelers and builders but it still isn't a trace and print operation. Try to make a full Ironman pep armor then comeback and explain to this community that our work is just recasting.



As far as rules go, you do have some interesting ideas about protecting ones unique designs. You want to make sure your hard work isn't copied from pictures correct? So who's unique armor did you copy to make your Ironman suit? Unless you are Shane Mahan you have copied his studios hard work to create a unique suite. If we were to apply some of your ideas on ethics your suit wouldn't be allow nor would any replica props on any site. Now I know your want these rules to pertain to pepakura only but that is a double standard and is once again disgracing the modelers, the builders, and the community here. This all the more exemplified by your suit existence which is a clay sculpt, not a pep file, that was copied from the movie, which was someone elses's design and hard work. So the difference between you copying someones hard work is the medium in which you copy their work, once again hypocrisy and insulting to the members of this site.



The real issue is that pep can provide and extremely good base for further modeling and detailing. This is further compounded by the fact that anyone can download and start making these files (unless the modeler charges for them, which is their choice). Your site SIWDAT is built on the foundation of being elitist, ether you have amazing armor or we don't know you. The 405th's community is exactly the opposite keep that in mind when your trying to influence the rules regarding a form of art which you don't practice. If your worried about losing your unique art then don't post them online, keep them in your workshop and wear them around. Should you choose to post them then be prepared for someone to be "inspired" by you work and ether make a freehand sculpt or a pep from it. Other wise send a letter to Marvel with your home address, a picture of "your" armor, and a price. Though, be prepared to get your door kicked in because you do not own your Ironman armor, Marvel owns the rights to the design.



You don't want people to copy your designs and work, yet you are famous for copying people's designs and work (by your own definition). Tell us again in simple clear context what rules you want us to shackle the pepakura community with, a community which you do not belong to and which you compete with as a prop maker. Now, get off my lawn .


I've been reading this for the past hour over and over and over(entire thread and thread on other site) and this guy seems like a VERY arrogant ass.
 
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Boba Fett

Well-Known Member
Tyvern said:
I've been reading this for the past hour over and over and over(entire thread and thread on other site) and this guy seems like a VERY arrogant ass.


Who are you talking about? And please don't bash people, tensions are high enough already... you're not helping.
 
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AlexSpartan177

Well-Known Member
Boba Fett said:
Who are you talking about? And please don't bash people, tensions are high enough already... you're not helping.


What tensions?

Its just a little discussion about pep.



We have been doing this for years, its just a little

mis-understanding or just a clarification for this guy.



We didnt have a problem until now, so why should we worry for only one person who is just a curious about pep.





I also think there would be some problems later because of this discussion,ut nothing I would worry about
 
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Tyvern

Well-Known Member
I'm talking about TMP<------ :angry



sorry if the guy that I quoted was the one you guys thought i was call'in out.
 

AlexSpartan177

Well-Known Member
Tyvern said:
I'm talking about TMP<------ :angry



sorry if the guy that I quoted was the one you guys thought i was call'in out.


Well its still doesnt matter, you never bash people in forums.
 
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Boba Fett

Well-Known Member
Well, it's turning into a MAJOR debate. and did you read the thread on the other forum? There's more than this going on. and TMP IS open to his opinion. Is is an arrogant @$$? Maybe (I'm not saying 1 way or the other, just FYI) but this does not help matters, and is extremely rude and disrespectful.
 

Nintendude

Well-Known Member
Here's my view on this when I started to create paper models quite a few years ago I never would have guessed it would escalate into such a hobby for everyone, personally I quit doing 3D requests myself just because I got tired of it but what I think is that if you can't sculpt, you can't model, and all you can do is rip a model then DO IT, not everyone is talented, I sure can't sculpt or model so all I am left with is ripping and I've helped a ton of people out by doing things the way that I do it. Now if a person wants to make a mold using one of my files then feel free to do so because I don't care if you use something of mine or not and I don't care if I am credited for doing the pep either since I did'nt do the model, but what I do feel is if a person decides to make copys from using a pep then ask the creator to do so because they just might want one for themselves. Now onto the term of "recaster" a lot of people are'nt going to like it when I say this but almost everyone here has recasted something, when you create a halo prop or costume piece have you gotten licence approval from Bungie to recreate and sell something that they created first, does that make you a recaster in someone elses eyes?
 

Brandon McClain

Well-Known Member
I don't think its fair to bash on TMP for what he has said. Part of his thinking has legitimate basis, especially for modelers. In all honesty, I don't know why they don't charge for what they do. I would pay for pep files, but that is because I place a value on them. I recognize that my work cannot continue without what they do. That being said, it also takes time to do unfolds, trust me I know. I do them for free, not only because I want to have them, but because I like helping out. That is what this community does. If it weren't for so many people here, I wouldn't have learned how to do this, so doing unfolds is part of my way of giving back. It makes me smile when I see someone using my unfold to make their parts. That is enough for me. It was worth the countless hours spent unfolding all the parts to see someone be able to use it and be successful. Its about developing an abundance mentality. Oh, and please allow me a little rant: $5 for your time?? Seriously?? I know what my time is worth. I get paid almost $50 an hour at my summer job. That is how much my time is worth, but I don't factor that in when I sell my casts. A good part takes a long time to develop. Its not cheap to make molds and cast. I try to keep it as fair as I can and recuperate the costs of what I do, but not a whole lot more. I don't try and make up for time spent, but $5? Not a chance. I literally but blood sweat and tears into my parts. So I will try and balance a little of my time spent, but still make it so that the parts are reasonable and fair. Okay, I think that little rant is over. I know that part of the unwritten rule is that casting is about producing only enough to cover costs. Its not about production but making parts available to people. For me, its tough to make my point without upsetting the modelers. I want them to know just how much I appreciate their work. If there is ever a model you don't want me to build and cast, let me know. I won't. But the peps that I use, I expand on. A lot. It becomes its own entity. I put a heck of a lot of time and effort into all my parts. So for someone to tell me that it is recasting irks quite a bit. My other 2 cents. almost broke now.
 

Tyvern

Well-Known Member
"Confusions like this or or statements going from far left to far right would not happend if we got guidelines for Pepakura." :eek



I'm confused about this guy's very strange working mind.....I thought that WE DO HAVE GUIDELINES do we not? :unsure .....I'm just asking..





also he's worried about DIGITAL references off of ''his"("his" design team) Iron Man used by others........He researches pics of various items yet the original artist for them didn't complain about him making use of references in a weird of no important value thread other than to be a......(I will refrain from cussing at this point in time)
 
Geez, poor TMP. I see both sides of the story. TMP NEVER said that Pepakura was useless. He said we should have GUIDELINES. GUIDELINES are different from RULES/LAWS. GUIDLINES are there to HELP us. LAWS are to be followed, GUIDLINES are there to once again, HELP us. With that said, I do not agree with you TMP about banning people. If I made an Iron Man helmet out of Pepakura, and I decided to cast it, am I wrong? I put the work into it. Does the modeler have the right to say no? They didn't make the actual piece that I put work into. I'm not saying that they don't get any say, they should get credit, but permission? I can understand if I bought a suit from TMP and asked him if I could re-cast it. He made the original piece, not me. On the other hand, did the modeler make the original piece? No. This subject could very well change Pepakura as we know it. For better or worse.



EDIT: FYI, TMP used digital images as an example. Modeling isn't easy, nor is sculpting. He means, what stops me from making a model of someone elses work. K, so I make an Original Helmet Design and make a prop. I take pictures of it from all angles, what stops someone from making a 3d model based on my pictures, making a pep, and make it publicly available?
 
I figured my post would ruffle a few feathers and for that I am sorry. However, I did feel it was necessary to show the hypocrisy that is unfortunately present in most elitist groups of modelers. The real problem is that TMP's viewpoint is that it is wrong to copy other modelers work but it is OK to copy the work of a modeler/professional prop maker who's work is on the big screen or in a game. Now if you take the artistic view point you are "inspired" by another artist's work and wish to create your own unique likeness of their work. Which is what most of the prop community goes by, even pepakura as we have how many different versions of the MK6 helmet? And none of them are perfect reproductions. TMP want's a rule inplace that would prevent pepakura users from being inspired from his unique work, which is hypocrisy as he himself was inspired from Shane Mahan's studio's work. The medium of work came into play due to lack of knowledge of how pepakura and 3D modelers work. The unfortunate part of all of this is that TMP didn't start the conversation but will experience the majority of the backlash due to a bold statement that is now clearly flawed and has been edited away on the RFP. Ethics is muddy on this large of a scale, while from a single person's viewpoint it is clear when you take a step back it becomes clear that you could be and probably are violating your own ethics/ideals. When you go around telling people to follow your ethics while you are violating you own rules is hypocrisy. But this is getting into a philosophical debate now... erm how about some of those unwritten rules (might be written somewhere but I can't find them).



The some plain and simple "rules" we abide by:

1. Give credit to the modeler, without him your stuck with a picture/screencap of some thing you wish you could model.

2. Give credit to the unfolder, without him your stuck with a cool file and a ream of cardstock.

3. Your finished model is yours, without your effort the model is still a file, you made it real.

4. Only the builder of the finished model can make casts of it unless elsewhere agreed upon (still frowned upon).





I have a few more personal rules that may or may not be enforced by the community.

1. Never use a game ripped model without written permission from the developer.

2. Should you get such permission do not release the files to the public, ever, as permission was given to you and solely you.

3. Never claim you created a technique if someone else did it before you, should you discover they did it first make sure people reading your post and his know he did it first (yeah, I did this once before Redshirt's tut was sticked, he beat me by months :( but it got buried in the forum).



Edit: ChaoBreeder, we as a community do this to professional prop makers on a regular bases. Should we make a special exception for community member props? In the end what you have provided in this scenario is "reference" pictures, granted when you're on the other end of the stick it sounds like a pretty raw deal.
 

billybong87

Jr Member
I honestly think it doesn't matter how many years you put into the project if you did not make the 3d model that is then placed into pep an generally unfolded by another person that hardly gets credit (yet again) you don't make extra money off the prop. This is principle, you sell it for exactly how much is costed you for the mold materials. There should be none of this labor included cost because you spent so long shaping it. 'YOU DID NOT CREATE' the initial shape.



If you are making props to make money, more fool you i say.



In fact looking over it again i think 3d modelers are entitled to royalties from cash people make off the pull.
 

DMW

Jr Member
Jeez, what a mess these threads are. Lots of thoughts going back & forth (good) but also lots of negativity being generated (bad).



My opinion (and assumption while building my own costume) is that if a modeler had a problem with people creating a meatspace model from their 3d model, they wouldn't release the files to the community at large. In general, if a modeler has specific limitations about the use of their model, those should obviously be respected --- perhaps even regulated by the community.



I tend to be more of a lurker than a poster, but one consistent behavior I've picked up on throughout my time here: we're a fairly good self-regulating group when it comes to people taking credit for a modeler's work --- I'm not going to bother digging up old threads, but I can recall on more than one occasion where a new user got the smack-down because they were trying to pass off a model as theirs when it's obvious that the piece wasn't. If it gets to the point where it's a requirement to declare the source models for your build, I imagine that the community would step up and self-regulate as well.





If there's a genuine concern about these issues from a significant representation of the community (especially the 3d modelers & unfolders) I would suggest declaring any limitations (or lack thereof) about the model's use, either within the model itself or on whatever wiki/repository/etc where it is hosted.



...just my $.02
 

JediFraz

Active Member
Wow, quite a lot of interesting ideas being thrown around.

I like to kid myself that I had a fair bit to do with Pepakura being brought here.

In the beginning Pepakura was a method of an individual constructing a set of proportionally correct armour made for thier size. It was not intended initially as a finished product, more as a basis for further detailing/finishing work.
I showed the community the tools and they ran with it. And how.:) From low count polys to 2nd Gen HD models. To automated cutting techniques using craft printers. The way the 405th has refined and progressed has been incredibly satisfying.

This thread is personally disturbing to me since I never gave any thought to what some unscuplulous types would do with the process.

I guess some people will always see ripping off others work for their own benefit as 'their right'.
It's these people we need to find and educate. They should altready know recasters are not welcome not only here in the 405th but also in the wider prop community.
 
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