Post Count and Username updates

Chernobyl

Sr Member
...whether someone chooses to credit or not becomes irrelevant to the Trophy system, only to the individual for marketing purposes- and their progress photos kinda prove that they built it themselves.
Pretty much. If you're attending a 405th deployment you'll need to have cleared it on the forum first - which implies that you're a member of the forum, which implies you have a build thread, which implies you'll be getting feedback and credit for that build - and, more importantly, GIVING feedback and credit. Which will roll back to the person who's being given the credit. To cover your below point about display pieces - again, there are awards in place to give members recognition for their hard work even if they don't deploy, meaning there's inclusion at all levels of the community. Put simply: you don't need to deploy to be an upstanding member of the community.

As I said before, the 405th has proved itself decent at providing credit where it's due, even down to 'I used these files, please credit the modeller'. It's a courtesy which is strongly encouraged when creating a costume using the work of others, and that stands true in any costuming community - I'm fairly sure the 501st has a stringent credit system when a TK uses a kit from a certain producer.

Plus, in terms of propmakers, their utility to the community really lies in their writeup and photo recording abilities, since just putting a good prop kit out there only really serves a handful of people- it's the "give a man a fish" thing, I suppose. So I assume that the information density and presentation would be the primary factors in the online verification process, balanced I guess by the overall quality of the finished product (since that dictates the "level" of the instructional content as a whole).
Art and Fangs would be able to shed more light on how verification is going to work in terms of costume suitability, but I'd assume that a build progress thread would play a part. I doubt it'd be essential, however, since, as we discussed, some people do deploy in kit-built costumes, and that the overall judgement comes from the suit quality and not where it came from. That said, even kit-built costumes require some refinement, so it's not illogical to expect the wearer to have put up a build thread somewhere.

...a "Teamwork!" Trophy with build quality levels or whatever could separate that out into something that may or may not matter, but be kinda cool within the community. Plus, if managed right, it could encourage lending or hiring or the higher-quality props and suits, improving the public face of the 405th but without undue pressure to overperform on the parts of the less experienced. At the same time, you don't want that to simply become an ecosystem of temporary ownership and more limited individual effort.
True, but as I believe Art mentioned earlier, Trophies are based more on your post count and a combination of your time served and overall reputation, as opposed to custom 'medals' given for certain deeds, while other awards are going to be given out individually for members who either complete/deploy in a costume, or create props and pieces for others to use.

The likes system I think is good, though as always there's the danger of it being used as an "I like this poster" or "I agree with this" button rather than "I found this useful and informative", but I suppose that's the sort of thing that gets culturally adjusted over time.
This is one of the reasons I'm trying to develop a team of specialists to write up tutorials - specifically those people who have expertise in certain areas, rather than just people who have a generic knowledge of a certain subject. I'm hoping that this is going to encourage the people who use those tutorials to use the Like button more, and give those contributing members further reputation for their hard work, regardless of whether they deploy or not. Personally speaking, the Tutorials system is going to be a great method for members who might not be able to deploy actively to still contribute and gain the recognition they deserve for their expertise.
 

transmut1

Member
Ok, so my main questions have to deal with someone who has a heavily if not ultra modified rubies suit.

I've been on here for a while, and have been working on my costume for what seems like ages. But I took the faster route and got a rubies suit and modified the living heck out of it.
I don't post much on here and don't have a build thread, but I do have pictures of everything I've done over the past couple years. I just work insane hours and hardly have time to work on the suit let alone post stuff. :(

Least year at Dragon Con 14 the 405th parade group and some of the guys from Stony Props gave me a 405th sticker to put on my suit which I proudly wear. They saw first hand the amount of effort and dedication I have poured into my suit and gave me the honor of being what I consider a valid member! I wasn't asking or even sure I was worthy for the honor, but I proudly accepted.

I do have plans to build my own from scratch full metal suit, but for right now I rock the all plastic one like no tomorrow. I spend a lot of my time modifying and making props for my suit too, see my M6G fully functioning pistol thread. :)

I would hope that even though I didn't build the armor from scratch but that I have poured so much time and effort into it, that I would still be considered a valid member and group costumer. People always ask me how I made it, and every time I always say its a rubies kit that I've heavily modified, I always give credit for each of my base props and where I got them, like my branfur studios pistol and my nerf "sarge" gun.
I've developed almost a routine on explaining things on my costume because I always get so many questions and I always refer people to either the 405 or the respective sites for where I got my props.

I guess my hope is that there will be a place for us rubies variant cosplayers in the new site, at least the ones who have put time into modifying and upgrading the suits. Just using one right out of the box is kinda not really showing skills.
but taking the time to modify things, build a new undersuit, harness system, sound system, lights, water cooling vest, those things should net some acceptance and approval I hope. :)

One of the few things I have left is another new visor and repainting the whole suit, then i'll move on to making my metal one and doing a full build thread.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, and I forgot to ask,

How will the time tracking sytem work, because I have a very bad habit of leaving my 405th page up in the back ground on my work computer 24/7 and at home, and on my phone?

I think I might have a problem now that I think about that.... ;)
 

Chernobyl

Sr Member
I would hope that even though I didn't build the armor from scratch but that I have poured so much time and effort into it, that I would still be considered a valid member and group costumer. People always ask me how I made it, and every time I always say its a rubies kit that I've heavily modified, I always give credit for each of my base props and where I got them, like my branfur studios pistol and my nerf "sarge" gun.
I've developed almost a routine on explaining things on my costume because I always get so many questions and I always refer people to either the 405 or the respective sites for where I got my props.
The fact that you've taken such pains to modify the armour and make it 'your own' should account for quite a deal, particularly if you've proof and a thread detailing the extensive work you've put into the suit. Likewise, having build threads for your other props (weapons, etc) will also be taken into consideration.

I can't say for sure how 'store-bought' suits (Rubies kits, the upcoming H4 Master Chief kits) will be viewed, though I suspect that we're going to try to focus more on the people that have put actual work into their costumes over members who have simply donned a kit bought from the store and turned up to a convention - as much as we welcome people to deploy with us in costume, I'd expect that the main focus will always be upon members that have put actual work into their sets. In long and short, however: we value all of our members equally, though we'll likely take into consideration the amount of work a member has put into their costume when grading.

How will the time tracking sytem work, because I have a very bad habit of leaving my 405th page up in the back ground on my work computer 24/7 and at home, and on my phone?
I'm fairly sure that the 'time tracking' system works on the overall duration of membership, rather than time spent logged into the site itself. I doubt you'll have much to worry about here.
 

FANGS

Commanding Officer
Community Staff
Division Staff
In the 501st when we get our gear approved, it doesn't matter where the kit came from, it's all about the finished product, how closely it matches the references and how well it fits the wearer. For most of us, we can give you the whole run down of where each piece of our gear came from, but in the end, if it fits me like crap, it doesn't matter. Most "experts" in the area of each costume have stared at the versions for so long that they can actually look at a kit and know who's it was. And that really comes from education. Learning all about who makes the best gear for your body type is likely the most important part of that education. It takes me an obnoxious amount of time to find gear that is scaled down for me (I'm only 5'1"). I had to learn who made smaller verions, which parts was I able to resize etc. etc. And really, it's the reason or at least one of the reasons my ODST kit still sits on the floor in my basement. I spent a lot of time talking to Sean Bradley about whether or not it could be resized. Now it's a matter of making that happen. Prop makers educating the rest of us on what they have to offer is a huge plus for this community and helps each of us figure out which route to go when we look to buy gear. And the rest of us sharing where we got our gear is not only a nice nod to those who take the time to make the kits but also a bonus for other members who don't know where to start.

I'm not even sure if I'm answering a question anymore....hahaha I might be a little passionate about this whole sharing and community thing.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
Art Andrews said:
In one sentence you have summed up a ton of typing and undermined your entire argument. :(

Every concern you have expressed truly is a "can you imagine" issue.
What I meant by that was you were trying to, I don't know, "shock/scare(?)" me into saying mixed interests are a bad thing by all these "horror scenarios" of Trekkies in a Star Wars group and whatnot, and quite frankly I look at those scenarios and say "what's the big deal?" If someone showed up at a convention with a My Little Spartan conglomerate cosplay, I wouldn't' say "oh hell no we can't allow that to rub elbows with us," I'd applaud them for taking two seemingly unrelated interests and blending them in a creative way. But that's "not allowed" or "highly frowned upon," and at the very least means they cannot be recognized as a part of the 405th "club." By that same logic, then, "Mister Chief" with his googly eyes and clenched teeth pasted on the helmet and a three-piece formal suit would be "unacceptable" as club material and a convention presence. And quite frankly, that's crap. These guidelines are basically telling people "damn your creativity and originality." It's "Halo game accurate," or it's "depart from us we never knew thee." And it isn't bad enough you tell people they have to have an "approved" suit, you divide the community even further with these arbitrary tier labels. "Oh, you're good, but you're not Tier 3 good,. Better luck next time." You can glaze it over with all the PR BS you want to dole out, when the end result is the same it doesn't matter how you sugar-coat it.

Chernobyl said:
And why not? The idea here is that reputation is something you earn rather than expect. The 405th Charter isn't about excluding people - far from it. There's a role here for everyone, regardless of suit quality, or even if you have a suit. And frankly, having certain barriers is more likely to encourage people to work harder on their costume rather than simply accept a "this'll do" standard and expect to follow through to the higher positions - if you want to reach the top you're going to need to work for it. And, while it's nice to have some 'weekend Spartans' who threw their costume together in a week at the back of their garage, and we recognise the work that's gone into even those builds, we're also about recognising the truly exceptional builds that certain members take months or longer to put together.
And is the 405th strictly Halo costume builders? That's what the club guidelines imply. If you don't build an approved Halo costume, you cannot (or simply will not) be recognized as 405th, you cannot represent the 405th at conventions or public events, you cannot even be a part of any 405th activity at conventions or public events except as a "handler" which basically means you stand in the shadow of someone who DID build an approved Halo costume and make sure nobody messes up their suit. You're about 5 steps below a rent-a-cop security guard. Crimmson has done a LOT of work for this community. MS7 has done a LOT of work for this community. YOU, personally, have done a LOT of work for this community. THe guidelines, in essence, say "Tough nuggets, you are not 405th club material" because you invested your time in providing resources for the community instead of building an approved suit just for yourself.

Chernobyl said:
Likewise, I expect that costume grading is going to be completely fair - we aren't going to get very far if we all sit around judging costumes harshly and accepting only the top cream of the pile.
Oh, I have little doubt of that. Those who can get over the hurdles of dropping a couple hundred dollars (or more) on materials and sinking 1700 manhours of labor into making a decent suit will have a fair shot. And then get shot right back out of the saddle if they can't make an event that year.

Chernobyl said:
Modesty's a fine thing. Regardless - the Elite Forum became riddled with favouritism, and generally didn't fulfil its purpose. This scheme is intended to give members the incentive to drive even harder to finish their build and do it to an exceptional quality, without brokering with favouritism. We had a lot of Elite builds that weren't finished, or were ongoing, when the purpose of that section was to recognise finished builds of an exceptional standard.
THe problem is that it's often less about modesty and more about insecurity and discouragement. A person logs into the forums, sees a build like LilTyrant's Kat and is completely blown away by the skill and attention to detail. "There's no way I could do that. I couldn't even draw the stupid donkey on the back of that matchbook." They see these guidelines that imply strict scrutiny by a panel of "quality control" judges who will go over every detail with a fine toothed comb to insure accuracy. "How am I even going to get close to that?" Application processes, reviews, approvals requirements, it all starts piling up until, psychologically, a person can't help feeling there's no reason to even try because even if they have a passion for it, all these factors add up to say "it won't be good enough to be 'official.'" As for unfinished/ongoing, I think one of our members said it best, "a good suit is never finished." There's always tweaks, modifications, and other things a person might want to do. A suit might be "Complete" in that it has all the parts and it's been painted, but maybe someone wants to add custom touches. Paint, emblems, LEDs and other electronics. Well, "you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs," so their "'complete" suit has to be pulled apart and another page or two goes up in their build thread. Why should that be a problem?

Chernobyl said:
I think you missed the point of this being a Halo-based costuming forum. We have a section dedicated towards non-Halo costuming, but if you're complaining that non-Halo costumes don't find as much attention on a Halo-based forum.... well, I think you might need to re-read your statement and rethink your position somewhat. Regardless - you could have the exact same complaint if you posted your build at Obscurus Crusade, Predatorium, TDH or on the 501st's forums. You're complaining that interests not relevant to this forum aren't being recognised... well, to counter your point: it wouldn't be much of a Halo-based costuming community if we had Iron Man, Destiny or Warhammer builds deploying alongside Spartans and ODSTs, would it?

If you're looking to post generic, non-Halo costumes I would suggest the Replica Prop Forum.
I didn't come to the 405th because it was a "Halo community." I came here because it was a "costuming and armor building community." And since I've been here for every ONE Halo build thread I've seen at least 2-3 NON-Halo builds. Iron Man, Titanfall, Destiny, Gundam, Mass Effect or whatever the N7 stuff comes from, heck even Power Rangers. And maybe to some people that's a problem they're trying to purge. Maybe they feel the 405th has lost touch with its roots" and they want to make it all about Halo again.Well that's fine for them but what about everyone else who has been putting in so much work towards non-Halo interests? Are you going to tell Zombiegrimm to pack up his bags and shuffle off somewhere else too because he's been focused on Skyrim for the last 2+ years? I guess it all boils down to which is more important, Halo, or the commun

Chernobyl said:
See above. Again, we welcome builds from other interests, but at the core of this forum, we focus on Halo costuming. You're basically driving a Chevrolet up to a Chrysler fan-club meeting, and then wondering why you're not getting as much attention. We have sections in the File Archive for a number of other interests - just a few days ago I finished uploading the Crysis Nanosuit set. For a Halo-focused costuming group, you'll find we've made exceptionally large allowances for other interests, when we could have easily said 'not Halo, pack your bags'. Please reconsider your argument and realise that what you're complaining about has literally no grounding here.
"No grounding here," and yet all that "blending of interests" goes right out the window when it comes to the 405th club. That's basically saying "we'll allow you to provide the resources that will benefit us in our other interest but when it comes to actually being recognized as one of us, that's never going to happen so don't even ask." Yet again, all the hard work and effort put in by the community here, even you and your Halo-related efforts here in the 405th, means NOTHING. You'll get a Librarian sticker and a virtual text pat on the back, but don't hold your breath for a convention invitation or to be mentioned in the same breath as the actual costume builders because they are all that the 405th club gives a rat's rectum about.

Chernobyl said:
Yet again - Halo-based community. We represent the Halo universe, not Star Wars, or Destiny, or the Marvel universe. Nobody has ever said 'you can't build an Iron Man kit' - just check out Sandbagger's amazing work and tell me that we don't recognise other universes. However, at the core of things, ad infinatum, ad irritatum, ad nauseum, we are a HALO costuming community. If you want to advance within the club, it's going to be from a Halo build - however, if you're content to be a member who stays on the 405th as a generic member and posts off-universe builds, we're still more than happy to have you.

We are not excluding members because their builds 'aren't Halo'. We are putting an emphasis on members creating Halo costumes, however, and we're putting emphasis on members doing their absolute level best to make their costumes to the best standard they can, and offering incentives for above-average work.
But it's not just the club. That elitism is proposed to leak into the "vanilla member" realm as well in the form of these "trophies" and what have you that are purely Halo build driven. And what is the best answer anyone has offered for any of this? "Go to the RPF." Yet again relegating members to some arbitrary "catch-all" rather than taking an opportunity to expand the scope of this community. And you know why I'm fighting tooth and nail over this? Because there is no "405th calibur" community anywhere that caters to these other interests. The skills, the resources, the people that make this community what it is, I haven't found that anywhere else. That's why I've called the 405th "home" for all things costume and cosplay related. I see here and opportunity for the 405th to become more than just a pigeon-holed special-interest group, and it's not even like I'm pushing for some ridiculous stretch of the imagination here. Bungie made Halo, Bungie made Destiny. It's not like I'm saying "405th needs to recognize bronies and pegasisters as legitimate 405th costume builds" or even "405th should abandon Halo in favor of other franchises." BUt maybe I'm just wasting my time here. Maybe what you're saying is right and I should just wash my hands of the 405th entirely and "pack my bags" for the RPF or some other community. Or say to hell with even trying to be "part" of any community because I"ll just run into more narrow-focused elitists who don't give two ****s about talent unless that talent follows THEIR chosen path.
 

Chernobyl

Sr Member
Before I begin, I'm going to ask you to turn down your fervour somewhat. I realise that this is a subject you're passionate about, but getting upset and resorting to cursing helps nobody at all.

And is the 405th strictly Halo costume builders? That's what the club guidelines imply. If you don't build an approved Halo costume, you cannot (or simply will not) be recognized as 405th, you cannot represent the 405th at conventions or public events, you cannot even be a part of any 405th activity at conventions or public events except as a "handler" which basically means you stand in the shadow of someone who DID build an approved Halo costume and make sure nobody messes up their suit. You're about 5 steps below a rent-a-cop security guard. Crimmson has done a LOT of work for this community. MS7 has done a LOT of work for this community. YOU, personally, have done a LOT of work for this community. THe guidelines, in essence, say "Tough nuggets, you are not 405th club material" because you invested your time in providing resources for the community instead of building an approved suit just for yourself.
You failed to realise that the guidelines allow for non-costuming members. Non-deploying members will still be able to contribute and belong to the community - just not the highest tier reserved for costuming members. The forum and the costuming club are two different things.

In all, you're still complaining that you brought a Chevrolet to a Chrysler fan-club. You can't walk up to these guys and say "I want to be in your club" just because you have four wheels and an engine. Any 501st member is going to look at an Iron Man build, do a double take, and ask 'are you serious?! if that person tries to participate in official 501st events. It's not relevant to the club's interests or focus - on deployment at official events, we're focusing on Halo.

Oh, I have little doubt of that. Those who can get over the hurdles of dropping a couple hundred dollars (or more) on materials and sinking 1700 manhours of labor into making a decent suit will have a fair shot. And then get shot right back out of the saddle if they can't make an event that year.
This is something I've brought up myself.

THe problem is that it's often less about modesty and more about insecurity and discouragement. A person logs into the forums, sees a build like LilTyrant's Kat and is completely blown away by the skill and attention to detail. "There's no way I could do that. I couldn't even draw the stupid donkey on the back of that matchbook." They see these guidelines that imply strict scrutiny by a panel of "quality control" judges who will go over every detail with a fine toothed comb to insure accuracy. "How am I even going to get close to that?" Application processes, reviews, approvals requirements, it all starts piling up until, psychologically, a person can't help feeling there's no reason to even try because even if they have a passion for it, all these factors add up to say "it won't be good enough to be 'official.'"
I think you're jumping in at the deep end here - there's nothing to suggest that the judging of costumes is going to be as intense as you suggest. I have a feeling that the grading is actually going to be fair and reasonable.

As for unfinished/ongoing, I think one of our members said it best, "a good suit is never finished." There's always tweaks, modifications, and other things a person might want to do. A suit might be "Complete" in that it has all the parts and it's been painted, but maybe someone wants to add custom touches. Paint, emblems, LEDs and other electronics. Well, "you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs," so their "'complete" suit has to be pulled apart and another page or two goes up in their build thread. Why should that be a problem?
It shouldn't. Nobody's going to penalise a person because they want to do some work on their 'finished' build. Why would we?

I didn't come to the 405th because it was a "Halo community." I came here because it was a "costuming and armor building community." And since I've been here for every ONE Halo build thread I've seen at least 2-3 NON-Halo builds. Iron Man, Titanfall, Destiny, Gundam, Mass Effect or whatever the N7 stuff comes from, heck even Power Rangers. And maybe to some people that's a problem they're trying to purge. Maybe they feel the 405th has lost touch with its roots" and they want to make it all about Halo again.Well that's fine for them but what about everyone else who has been putting in so much work towards non-Halo interests? Are you going to tell Zombiegrimm to pack up his bags and shuffle off somewhere else too because he's been focused on Skyrim for the last 2+ years? I guess it all boils down to which is more important, Halo, or the community
Yet again, jumping off at the deep end. Nobody's telling members to shove off just because they're not making Halo costumes - please, get this mentality out of your system. We're not shunning non-Halo builds, but... this is a Halo costuming forum, at the end of the day. We have an off-topic builds section for those who want to create non-Halo builds, but our focus was and always will be Halo. Only Halo costumes are going to be allowed to feature within the club aspect of the community - what's difficult to understand about this? You joined a Halo costuming community and started complaining that your non-Halo builds aren't going to be officially recognised by the group - please re-think your logic here.

Yet again, all the hard work and effort put in by the community here, even you and your Halo-related efforts here in the 405th, means NOTHING. You'll get a Librarian sticker and a virtual text pat on the back, but don't hold your breath for a convention invitation or to be mentioned in the same breath as the actual costume builders because they are all that the 405th club gives a rat's rectum about.
Again, not true. The community and the club are two distinctly different things - I can still contribute to the community without attending deployments, and I'm happy with that. I've gained a name and a reputation for myself for providing files for people and generally helping people out where I can, nobody can take that away from me. The work I do here is pretty essential - it helps other people develop their costumes and deploy. The satisfaction I get from that is worth far more than any invitation to dinner.

"Go to the RPF." Yet again relegating members to some arbitrary "catch-all" rather than taking an opportunity to expand the scope of this community. And you know why I'm fighting tooth and nail over this? Because there is no "405th calibur" community anywhere that caters to these other interests.
Of course there are - and even so, if there aren't, make one. You're still forgetting that, even if we allow other builds, this is a HALO costuming forum, not 'Halo and misc'. At our core, we focus on HALO costumes - why is this so hard to understand? You're getting upset at your non-Halo efforts not being as highly regarded on a Halo-focused site.

BUt maybe I'm just wasting my time here. Maybe what you're saying is right and I should just wash my hands of the 405th entirely and "pack my bags" for the RPF or some other community. Or say to hell with even trying to be "part" of any community because I"ll just run into more narrow-focused elitists who don't give two ****s about talent unless that talent follows THEIR chosen path.
Unnecessary and melodramatic, I think. It's obvious that this issue has upset you, and I think you could do with a little time to sit back and reconsider your complaints a little more thoroughly, but let me condense your issues here:

- Nobody is saying 'don't make non-Halo stuff'
- Your non-Halo stuff will be appreciated
- Your non-Halo stuff won't be accepted as official 405th Club material BECAUSE IT'S NOT RELEVANT TO THE COMMUNITY FOCUS
- Even if you don't deploy, your membership is always appreciated
- We're not telling you to stuff off if you don't deploy to conventions.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
Chernobyl said:
The forum and the costuming club are two different things.
Then don't have it here. I mean, plain and simple if the "club" is going to be such an exclusionary and alienating entity, get it the heck out of here and give it its own site somewhere else and call it something else. The 405th is a COMMUNITY, not a club. Y'all want a club that only Halo costumers can be a part of, call it the Halo Costumers Club and take it somewhere else. Stop taking a dump on 99% of the members here who don't or flat out CAN'T have a fully complete Halo suit and yet still pour their blood, sweat, and tears into this community.

Chernobyl said:
In all, you're still complaining that you brought a Chevrolet to a Chrysler fan-club. You can't walk up to these guys and say "I want to be in your club" just because you have four wheels and an engine. Any 501st member is going to look at an Iron Man build, do a double take, and ask 'are you serious?! if that person tries to participate in official 501st events. It's not relevant to the club's interests or focus - on deployment at official events, we're focusing on Halo.
When I came into the 405th, the entire first two pages of the forum were filled with every other build BUT Halo. But let's take a jab at that comparison you keep coming back to. The 405th does not limit itself to Halo-only conventions and events. Gaming, sci-fi, anything that appeals to general nerd-culture, you'll find people from the 405th wanting to show up and show off. So to use your scenario, I'm showing up at a CAR show as a muscle car enthusiast, and I want to hang with a you mopar fanatics, and you're telling me because I drove here in a Coronet and you all think Road Runners are the bomb diggity, I can't be seen anywhere near "your" end of the lot, even if my Dodge is immaculate and has far more work put into it than any of your Plymouths. And furthermore it's telling all the mechanics, airbrushers, painters, and body shop guys that they aren't "good enough" to hang around either because they only work on these cars, they don't actually drive one. Do you get what I'm getting at here? Exclusion, elitism, even if it's entirely unintentional and undesired by those greasing the wheels, it's still coming out.

Chernobyl said:
This is something I've brought up myself.
The problem is, that's not even the limit of how divisive and exclusive this is. I don't have a job. I haven't been able to find work in nearly 4 years. Having a complete suit is a luxury I can't afford. Attending a convention is something I can only dream about. I look at Destiny as a significantly less demanding (at least budget-wise) option because, particularly for Warlocks and Hunters, hard armor is few and far between and I have enough "scrap" materials lying around the house to pep at least one complete helmet, but there's no way I could pull a full set of Mjolnir digs out of one fiberglass repair kit. 80-90% of the build will be cloth which can be achieved through modifying existing clothing items that I've outgrown and haven't dropped off at the Salvation Army yet. Going to a convention is still a long shot, but the guidelines are basically saying even if I COULD attend one, I could not do so as a recognized 405th member, or at least as a "club" member. I seriously vomit a little in the back of my mouth every time I have to make that distinction even in theory. It literally sickens me. But let's take it a step further and say that a local Gamestop or even a small-time local game shop wants to put on an event. Destiny 2 is coming out, or they just want to have a "gathering of the gamers" for whatever reason and they invite people to show up in costume. I'm a member of the 405th, but I can't "officially" represent them because I Don't have a Halo costume. People might be interested in all the non-Halo resources we have here and the helpful community that calls the 405th home, but they won't get to know about it because I can't be any kind of "officially recognized and authorized ambassador of the 405th" to these potential future members.

Chernobyl said:
I think you're jumping in at the deep end here - there's nothing to suggest that the judging of costumes is going to be as intense as you suggest. I have a feeling that the grading is actually going to be fair and reasonable.
I would hope my reaction would be enough to at least suggest that it doesn't matter if it is that intense if people get the impression that it will be that intense. It might be as simple a fix as rewording the literature, but that is something only time and experience will reveal.

Chernobyl said:
It shouldn't. Nobody's going to penalise a person because they want to do some work on their 'finished' build. Why would we?
But if that tweak work happens to clash with their convention/event schedule and they can't show up in their completed (and approved) suit and attain proof that they were there in that suit, down comes the boot, according to the literature. I know you have brought up this and similar scenarios and the response was that these matters would be handled on a case by case basis, but that doesn't change the literature, and the literature is going to be the first, and in many cases the last impression anyone gets on "the club." If the official word is "you MUST fit these requirements or you're out," it doesn't matter what is hashed out in the forums, people are going to feel shut out.

Chernobyl said:
Yet again, jumping off at the deep end. Nobody's telling members to shove off just because they're not making Halo costumes - please, get this mentality out of your system. We're not shunning non-Halo builds, but... this is a Halo costuming forum, at the end of the day. We have an off-topic builds section for those who want to create non-Halo builds, but our focus was and always will be Halo. Only Halo costumes are going to be allowed to feature within the club aspect of the community - what's difficult to understand about this? You joined a Halo costuming community and started complaining that your non-Halo builds aren't going to be officially recognised by the group - please re-think your logic here.
The "community" may not be shunning them but "the club" is telling them to pound salt. Which brings me back to the original quesiton, why the heck do we even need the club?

Chernobyl said:
Again, not true. The community and the club are two distinctly different things - I can still contribute to the community without attending deployments, and I'm happy with that. I've gained a name and a reputation for myself for providing files for people and generally helping people out where I can, nobody can take that away from me. The work I do here is pretty essential - it helps other people develop their costumes and deploy. The satisfaction I get from that is worth far more than any invitation to dinner.
And I repeat: "don't hold your breath for a convention invitation or to be mentioned in the same breath as the actual costume builders because they are all that the 405th club gives a rat's rectum about." You will never be part of the club. All of your hard work means NOTHING. You will not be recognized as part of the 405th CLUB at any convention or event, you will not be called upon to represent toe 405th in any official capacity, and the reason I keep coming back to this is because that is pure, unadulterated horse crap.

Chernobyl said:
Of course there are - and even so, if there aren't, make one. You're still forgetting that, even if we allow other builds, this is a HALO costuming forum, not 'Halo and misc'. At our core, we focus on HALO costumes - why is this so hard to understand? You're getting upset at your non-Halo efforts not being as highly regarded on a Halo-focused site.
You have star wars, you have predator, you have Halo, and you have "whatever the heck else" in the RPF. "The Tower" group on Facebook (hardly comparable to a site like this) is the closest I've seen and I constantly have to refer members HERE to find Destiny resources because they simply are not readily available anywhere else. NO other community i Have seen has the resources nor the skillset of the community here. Period.

Chernobyl said:
- Nobody is saying 'don't make non-Halo stuff'
Just that it doesn't matter as much as Halo stuff.

Chernobyl said:
- Your non-Halo stuff will be appreciated
But not in any "official" capacity

Chernobyl said:
- Your non-Halo stuff won't be accepted as official 405th Club material BECAUSE IT'S NOT RELEVANT TO THE COMMUNITY FOCUS
Because it is not relevant to the CLUB focus. The community loves this stuff.

Chernobyl said:
- Even if you don't deploy, your membership is always appreciated
And maybe I actually give a crap about being officially accepted and recognized rather than being handed the same consolation PR garbage that literally anyone else can get.

Chernobyl said:
- We're not telling you to stuff off if you don't deploy to conventions.
No, just that I don't "belong" with the "adults" in their "club."

So yea, yet again, screw the club. I cannot fathom for the life of me why we even need such a thing.
 

Chernobyl

Sr Member
Then don't have it here. I mean, plain and simple if the "club" is going to be such an exclusionary and alienating entity, get it the heck out of here and give it its own site somewhere else and call it something else. The 405th is a COMMUNITY, not a club. Y'all want a club that only Halo costumers can be a part of, call it the Halo Costumers Club and take it somewhere else. Stop taking a dump on 99% of the members here who don't or flat out CAN'T have a fully complete Halo suit and yet still pour their blood, sweat, and tears into this community.
We're doing no such thing. There's a way for everybody to be involved, regardless of a member's ability or circumstance - this is why we have tiered membership, to allow those that don't have costumes to participate. You don't even need a costume to participate in deployments - we invite you to come along to conventions and enjoy yourself as part of the community.

When I came into the 405th, the entire first two pages of the forum were filled with every other build BUT Halo. But let's take a jab at that comparison you keep coming back to. The 405th does not limit itself to Halo-only conventions and events. Gaming, sci-fi, anything that appeals to general nerd-culture, you'll find people from the 405th wanting to show up and show off. So to use your scenario, I'm showing up at a CAR show as a muscle car enthusiast, and I want to hang with a you mopar fanatics, and you're telling me because I drove here in a Coronet and you all think Road Runners are the bomb diggity, I can't be seen anywhere near "your" end of the lot, even if my Dodge is immaculate and has far more work put into it than any of your Plymouths. And furthermore it's telling all the mechanics, airbrushers, painters, and body shop guys that they aren't "good enough" to hang around either because they only work on these cars, they don't actually drive one. Do you get what I'm getting at here? Exclusion, elitism, even if it's entirely unintentional and undesired by those greasing the wheels, it's still coming out.
...no. Don't drive your Dodge to a Plymouth event and then wonder why you're not welcome or invited. The meaning of a 'special interest' group seems to have eluded you - we're here for Halo. Not Destiny, or Iron Man, or whatever else. We've given you a space to display that work, but don't complain that your non-Halo builds aren't gaining recognition on a Halo-based forum.

If the official word is "you MUST fit these requirements or you're out," it doesn't matter what is hashed out in the forums, people are going to feel shut out.
We're not 'shutting people out'. We're trying to be as inclusive as we possibly can - everyone is welcome within the community, regardless of talent or circumstance. However, we have a higher grade available to give those who extend their ability that bit further - why is this such a bad thing? We're offering a tier to recognise people who work harder, nothing more - you're complaining that not having a Halo costume excludes you from this tier.

Surprisingly, this is the tier system in work. You don't get to hop into the 'Club' tier without meeting the requirements - that's the entire point of the Club. Think of the Everest Climbers Club, or the Veterans Club - you have to attain goals to enter those clubs. The 405th's Costume Club is no different.

And I repeat: "don't hold your breath for a convention invitation or to be mentioned in the same breath as the actual costume builders because they are all that the 405th club gives a rat's rectum about." You will never be part of the club. All of your hard work means NOTHING. You will not be recognized as part of the 405th CLUB at any convention or event, you will not be called upon to represent toe 405th in any official capacity, and the reason I keep coming back to this is because that is pure, unadulterated horse crap.
I don't need to have a costume or attend conventions to contribute. You're so hung up on the fact that you're excluded from the Club aspect of the 405th that you've forgotten that there's an entire community behind it. I can still interact with every 405th member, regardless of whether they're a part of the Club or community - not having a suit doesn't stop me from talking to people.

Just that it doesn't matter as much as Halo stuff.
Again, that's the point of it being a Halo forum.

And maybe I actually give a crap about being officially accepted and recognized rather than being handed the same consolation PR garbage that literally anyone else can get.
Then get a suit. There's little point in having some exclusivity to the Club if we just let everybody in - and, again, you can contribute to the Community just fine without a Halo costume.

Look, I'll be honest, here: you're throwing your toys out of the carriage for some fairly petty reasons. If you can't fathom that this is a special interest group dedicated to Halo, and that your non-Halo projects aren't going to gain as much attention as articles relevant to this community's interest, then I've got honestly nothing for you. I've stated the matter time and again, and I can't break this down for you any more simply: this is a Halo costuming group. Of course your non-Halo builds aren't going to obtain 'official recognition' - that's not the group's focus. We welcome other builds, we really do - if we wanted to, we'd delete and restrict all non-Halo content, but we haven't. We support and encourage diversity, but at the core, for the last time, we are dedicated to HALO COSTUMING.

Your main complaint can be summed up as 'why won't you let me join the Halo club with my Destiny outfits?' - well... as good as your outfits may or may not be, it sort of defeats the point of this group's focus being HALO-related if we have other content mixed in. You have your place on the 405th to display your works, please stop complaining and pressing the non-issue. You're welcome on the 405th regardless of which costumes you work on, but the CLUB'S focus is, and always will be, HALO.

Now, I would ask you to please, kindly, stop your tantrum and realise how much of a non-issue your complaint is. Nobody is telling you to leave, or telling you that you're not as well-considered as other members - your work is valued, but extremely out of context.
 

Art Andrews

Community Owner
Community Staff
Oh yeah, and I forgot to ask,

How will the time tracking sytem work, because I have a very bad habit of leaving my 405th page up in the back ground on my work computer 24/7 and at home, and on my phone?

I think I might have a problem now that I think about that.... ;)
:lol Sorry... I wasn't clear on the "time" thing. In regard to the trophy system, you are awarded points for how many years you have been a registered member of the site, not literally hours online (we don't have a way to track that, nor would we want to ;)). Granted, you aren't awarded very many points for years registered because ANYONE can just register and then do nothing. Many more points are awarded for participation.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
Chernobyl said:
We're doing no such thing. There's a way for everybody to be involved, regardless of a member's ability or circumstance - this is why we have tiered membership, to allow those that don't have costumes to participate. You don't even need a costume to participate in deployments - we invite you to come along to conventions and enjoy yourself as part of the community.
"Recruits and Enlisted Members may attend physical events as part of the attending public, but have no physical representation rights outside that of the 405th's internet presence."

This excerpt from the club membership terms says otherwise. According o he literature, you can NOT be "deployed" or otherwise engage in deployments as anything but, at best, a handler. You can be there "as part of the attending public," indistinguishable fro anyone coming in off the street who has never even HEARD of he 405th before. Again, you can give all the PR pat answer BS you want but the literature says if you don't have a costume you don't belong in the club as anything more than a glorified babys

Chernobyl said:
...no. Don't drive your Dodge to a Plymouth event and then wonder why you're not welcome or invited. The meaning of a 'special interest' group seems to have eluded you - we're here for Halo. Not Destiny, or Iron Man, or whatever else. We've given you a space to display that work, but don't complain that your non-Halo builds aren't gaining recognition on a Halo-based forum.
Car show. CAR show. Not Plymouth show. Conventions are not "Halo only." Gaming events are not "Halo only." All the public appearances people ask this community for are not "Halo only." They just want costumed people to show up and make an impact and they call us not for Halo, but for craftsmanship and presence (i.e. people skills, the ability to "play" the character, etc.). The only thing "Halo only" are the club rules and some individuals' MISconception of what all goes on within the 405th despite the mountain of non-Halo content, builds, files, etc. here.

Chernobyl said:
We're not 'shutting people out'. We're trying to be as inclusive as we possibly can - everyone is welcome within the community, regardless of talent or circumstance. However, we have a higher grade available to give those who extend their ability that bit further - why is this such a bad thing? We're offering a tier to recognize people who work harder, nothing more - you're complaining that not having a Halo costume excludes you from this tier.
Surprisingly, this is the tier system in work. You don't get to hop into the 'Club' tier without meeting the requirements - that's the entire point of the Club. Think of the Everest Climbers Club, or the Veterans Club - you have to attain goals to enter those clubs. The 405th's Costume Club is no different.[/quote]

You keep going back to the PR answers and all this "the community is all-inclusive" stuff, but I'm not talking about the community and I'm not voicing concerns about he community. I'm talking about the CLUB and how divisive and detrimental it can be, and already has been before it's even fully implemented, to the community. And yea, the Everest Climbers Club is for people who climbed Mt. Everest, but it's not reserved only for those who climbed a specific route using specific tools in a specific time frame with a specific group wearing a certain brand of parka. But yet again it brings me back to the same question: why do we NEED a club? We have costumers, we have modelers, we have prop makers, molders, painters, foamers, pep-ers, we have the community. WHY do we need a club? Convention presence? We have regiments that keep track of who has completed costumes and who can attend what conventions. Public appearances and other events? Same deal. No judgments, no tiers, no anal-retentive rules and exclusions. "Can you suit up? Can you be there? Ok, we're golden." Want to set up a booth? Take the initiative and set up a booth. There is absolutely no purpose in having a club except to cause division and elitism and exclude certain people based on some arbitrary idea of "official recognition."

Chernobyl said:
I don't need to have a costume or attend conventions to contribute. You're so hung up on the fact that you're excluded from the Club aspect of the 405th that you've forgotten that there's an entire community behind it. I can still interact with every 405th member, regardless of whether they're a part of the Club or community - not having a suit doesn't stop me from talking to people.
And maybe you don't care that outside of this little dust mote on the internet, you have no 405th presence. That's you. But that's not me and I know I'm not the only one. Just maybe the only one willing to take it to he mat over this "petty, non-issue."

Chernobyl said:
Then get a suit.
Sure. Just give me $200 for materials, or $1200 to buy a full kit, and after that another $300-800 a year for convention expenses. Just "get a suit." That's what you're going with. Well you know what, thank you for at least "validating" me as a plain, vanilla, unremarkable and unrecognizable, everyday, run-of-the-mill member of the 405th community. Quite frankly at this point I don't give a **** about the "club" and even less of one about whether or not you or anyone else feels such language undermines my point because the sad reality is nobody apparently gives one about addressing and alleviating legitimate concerns of long-standing members (longer standing than the current administration for what sense that makes). You keep saying "this is HALO." I keep saying "This is a COMMUNITY" and I'll say it yet again, Why do we need a freaking club at all?! Seriously, give me one good reason (and it had better be a damn good one) why we NEED a club. THAT is my primary platform. All the non-Halo costuming stuff is just a matter of "if we have it, why does it have to exclude the other 80+% of the community." The main point always come back to why do we even need this garbage in the first place.
 

RobTC

Member
This fascinating circular debate leads only really to one relevant question. What do Movie Prop Sites, LLC say? Is this a directive from the top as they consolidate their assets and assess their approaches to marketing and monetisation of the exponentially increasing interest in cosplay? That's certainly what it appears to be, in which case the argument is entirely irrelevant, because it's a take it or leave it situation.

If MPS are taking a hands-off approach, what's the impetus for this stratification? Where is it coming from and why is it necessary? This might be the tip of the iceberg of Chernobyl's predicted fallout if there isn't more transparency. When you build a property based on a community, it's only worth anything as long as the community decide it is.

I don't really fall on either side of the fence; I can see the utility of a free quality-controlled source of marketing for the 405th and extras for 343i events and a system to filter the higher quality content to the people who need it for learning. I can equally see that this is ultimately a resource that's made or broken by its population; while it may legally be an IP to be bought and sold, its only value is in the presence of community-minded individuals (who tend to balk at stratification as a "system of exclusion").

But I think the cards need to be laid on the table so that people can decide where they stand based on solid information.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
This fascinating circular debate leads only really to one relevant question. What do Movie Prop Sites, LLC say? Is this a directive from the top as they consolidate their assets and assess their approaches to marketing and monetisation of the exponentially increasing interest in cosplay? That's certainly what it appears to be, in which case the argument is entirely irrelevant, because it's a take it or leave it situation.

If MPS are taking a hands-off approach, what's the impetus for this stratification? Where is it coming from and why is it necessary? This might be the tip of the iceberg of Chernobyl's predicted fallout if there isn't more transparency. When you build a property based on a community, it's only worth anything as long as the community decide it is.

I don't really fall on either side of the fence; I can see the utility of a free quality-controlled source of marketing for the 405th and extras for 343i events and a system to filter the higher quality content to the people who need it for learning. I can equally see that this is ultimately a resource that's made or broken by its population; while it may legally be an IP to be bought and sold, its only value is in the presence of community-minded individuals (who tend to balk at stratification as a "system of exclusion").

But I think the cards need to be laid on the table so that people can decide where they stand based on solid information.
Well here's a simple thought on that: What is the 405th's relationship with Bungie? Or more to the point, what WAS our working relationship with them before Halo was handed over for 343 to flush down the toilet? It's been mentioned that 343 supports the efforts of the 405th and has asked for our presence at conventions. What about Bungie? Have they ever done so? I have to ask because I wasn't overly involved in the 405th before the changeover. If we had a good working relationship (or any kind of working relationship) isn't an exclusively Halo-only approach basically shutting the door on Bungie as well? Essentially telling them they handed us over along with their franchise to 343? If Bungie did put out a call, would the 405th be able to answer or would we be so wrapped up in our "Halo club" that we'd let an opportunity slip by? Just something for the higher-ups to take into consideration from a more "professional/business" standpoint. Diversity and inclusion over specialization and exclusion can only improve the 405th "Brand" as it were.
 

FANGS

Commanding Officer
Community Staff
Division Staff
I'm going to ask for everyone to take a step back.
Zaff There are lots of changes that have happened and now we're in the process of moving forward and giving more structure to the club side. I totally understand that people have concerns. And we'd be happy to try and address those concerns. But we are going to get anywhere if someone comes to the conversation without an open mind. If you've made up your mind then is nothing I can tell you that will change it and you and I are going to wear ourselves out going round and round to no positive end.

I believe you've written off the changes without giving them a chance to even start. Instead of being at odds, I'm going to ask that we work together to address your concerns as they happen, instead of the what ifs. And I'm going to ask that you step away for the night so we can have a better conversation at another time. I'd appreciate your cooperation with this.
 
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Zaff

Well-Known Member
I can only say that from my experience it's better to deal with problems in terms of "what if" rather than "what now." My mind works in terms of calculations and extensive plans. Probably why I have a brain cluttered full of concepts, ideas, and possibilities and only a handful of completed or even started projects. But I'd rather take the time ahead of time to plan it all out and do it right once than to take a flying leap of faith and just hope I can sprout wings and the know-how to use them before everything goes splat, or else have to repeat the same process innumerable times waiting for one of them to finally stick. Nobody gets anywhere if they don't move, but you don't get anywhere from spinning your wheels, either.
 

FANGS

Commanding Officer
Community Staff
Division Staff
I can appreciate that, Zaff. I have a zillion costume projects on the go at all times. And sometimes I get zero done on them because I spend my time stressing about where to start etc. But over time I've discovered that its better for me to break up my big list in to smaller bits and not overwhelm myself all the time with the big picture. I can think things too death if I allow it.

Let's you and I work through one thing at a time. We can even throw in some Destiny costume talk 'cuz I'm working on a Warlock. In the meantime though.....go relax. This getting sleepy girl is getting ready for bed. G'nite!
 

Ashuraa

Judicial Officer
Division Staff
I have noticed a lot of mention of armor, as costumes for Halo. There are other options other then only armor. There are the dress uniforms that are shown in various HALO universe games, movies, and short films. There are also the myriad support personnel shown in those same cannon showings. This means that there are enormous amounts of other options, some that might prove cheaper, and or easier for some people to make.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
I have noticed a lot of mention of armor, as costumes for Halo. There are other options other then only armor. There are the dress uniforms that are shown in various HALO universe games, movies, and short films. There are also the myriad support personnel shown in those same cannon showings. This means that there are enormous amounts of other options, some that might prove cheaper, and or easier for some people to make.
That may very well be, but let's be honest, who here joined the 405th wanting to learn how to make the work scrubs of "nameless background technician #487?" CLosest anyone I've seen has ever come to wanting any kind of "supporting character" role is Cortana, or a non-cannon Marine/ODST. As trends go people would much rather be Iron Man or a Titanfall pilot and be relegated to obscurity in the catch-all than to work on a non-descript Halo background extra. And I know I keep pushing Destiny but to me it's the "non-Halo" most closely related to Halo I've seen come up in the community, and not simply because the games were given life by the same people, although that does play a significant role in my book. People like options. They like customization. They like being able to make something both recognizable and personal at the same time. To stand out and yet be part of the group. And that's why i've been so adamant about allowing at least some exceptions to the "Halo Only" Club. To me as long as it fits into the "armored sci-fi shooter" bin, really it's just slightly different flavors of the same treat. The same level of passion, dedication, and creativity goes into it and right now the 405th has the best foundation for a Destiny branch. I haven't joined the RPF but I've browsed around there a few times since this topic first came up months ago, and to say "pickings are slim" would be a gross understatement. I don't know, maybe sometime in the last week or so there was a sudden deluge of interest and resources and new builds, but I'm skeptical at best.
 

Chernobyl

Sr Member
This might be the tip of the iceberg of Chernobyl's predicted fallout
I see what you did there, you sneaky sneaky git. I see what you did there.

Zaff I realise you're jaded from the 'same old PR spin' but please - arguing the point is getting nobody anywhere. We all realise by now that you're upset for your Destiny hopes not gaining as much attention as a Halo-based costume might, and in some ways I do appreciate why you'd feel left out. Again, we're not here to exclude anybody, as much as you might think we are - but I'm going to ask you again to consider the core focus of this community. It's already been mentioned that non-Halo builds will be allowed to represent the 405th (I believe somebody mentioned putting 405th stickers on a non-Halo costume at a convention), but for the Club aspect, we're focusing on Halo builds - again, it's a Halo group at its core. This example may help you figure things out a little more easily:

"We've just set up an exclusive club for people who have made Halo costumes!"
"Can I come in too?"
"What's your build focus?"
"Destiny!"
"...well... see, we kind of have this thing... it's a Halo-based group..."
"But I want to come in! I put just as much work into my Destiny build!"
"Pretty sweet costume, I gotta admit, but it's a group for Halo costumes."
"Well... no, you're right, but..."
"Then you answered your own question, didn't you?"
"That's unfair!"
"That's... sort of the point of it being a Halo costume club, though."

My only suggestion at this point would be to try to cultivate a Destiny sub-group within the 405th if you're truly desperate to remain within the community but develop non-Halo outfits. Yet again, non-Halo costumes are welcome here - we're not telling you to pack your bags and set sail for pastures greener simply because your focus doesn't encompass Halo. We have an off-topic builds area for just such a purpose. I'd encourage you to do so, in fact - if you can gather a following here, there might be enough of a foundation for you to move into a full Destiny-themed costuming group yourself. Bear in mind that Destiny has only been out for a year or so at this point, however - it needs some time to gather steam.

If your concerns are that non-Spartan/non-Marine/non-Trooper builds won't be recognised as much as full armour, let me put those fears to rest. We are not going to exclude people for non-armour builds. Why would we? They're just as integral to the Halo universe as John-117 himself. As long as the costume is well-crafted and universe-relevant, it will be considered.
 
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RobotChicken

Well-Known Member
You can't walk into a restaurant and order fish, then complain when the order arrives because it's fish instead of chicken and you wanted chicken. (Well, technically you can, but it's not being reasonable.) Who's picture is at the top of every page at this site? Master Chief. Why? Because this is a Halo-oriented site. You knew that when registering, so get over it already. It's totally reasonable that the only candidates eligible for this silly "glee club" thing are Halo-related builds because this is a Halo-related site. Period. If you have issue with that then simply ignore the fact a club exists at all and happily show your costumes in the applicable non-Halo forums (at this site), because that's where your other non-Halo (and Halo) fans will be. Drive your Chevy to the appropriate room of a car show if you want a ribbon because the Chrysler folks just aren't going to give you one regardless of how amazing your car looks - bottom line, it ain't a Chrysler and whining about it won't change that fact. (And those Chrysler people are probably too savvy to be fooled by placing a Chrysler emblem on your Chevy - it's still a Chevy.) Yes, the event is a convention, but the booth is 405th - and 405th means Halo, so sit down and eat your fish. :behave
 

Chernobyl

Sr Member
That... was probably a little more forthright and could do with some revising to take the edge off, but your point's pretty valid. Just try next time to not be quite so... rash... when responding to such a delicate subject? It's obvious that people have got some pretty large concerns about whether they'll feel like they're valued and belong to the community post-Mantle, we need to be supportive of each other instead of saying 'put up and shut up'.
 
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