Post Count and Username updates

RobotChicken

Well-Known Member
I don't care you little brat you're both in trouble now go sit in the naughty corner 'COS I BLOODY WELL SAID SO 'COS I'M YOUR MOTHER. Or do I have to turn this car around?
I dunno, is that a Chrysler car or a Chevy? lol

A lot of the arguments I've read here are just flat out invalid with respect to the "rules" of this new club thing. If somebody doesn't agree with the rules of a game then they simply shouldn't play the game. If they want to play because it looks fun then they need to understand they're not authorized to change the rules of a game to suit them (unless the other players agree to the changes). But going on and on about why your non-fluorescent clothes don't glow under the blacklight and asking to see the manager for a different light is not logical.
 

Chernobyl

Sr Member
I dunno, is that a Chrysler car or a Chevy? lol
nBn2QQG.jpg


A lot of the arguments I've read here are just flat out invalid with respect to the "rules" of this new club thing. If somebody doesn't agree with the rules of a game then they simply shouldn't play the game. If they want to play because it looks fun then they need to understand they're not authorized to change the rules of a game to suit them (unless the other players agree to the changes). But going on and on about why your non-fluorescent clothes don't glow under the blacklight and asking to see the manager for a different light is not logical.
Again - all true. That being said, we need to work on a system that, while celebrating our main focus, also allows people who don't necessarily feel drawn to Halo in particular, to still engage with the community in a worthwhile fashion. Zaff draws some good points and bad points - we don't want to ruffle any feathers of make anybody feel left out, regardless of which costume they've made, but we do need to place the main focus of this community on what we're all here for - and that's Halo.

There's nothing wrong with celebrating other builds at all. Some of the other work I've seen here is fantastic, and the community spirit here is absolutely amazing - nobody's going to say 'pack yer bags, that's not a Halo build', but, when we get down to it: throwing a tantrum because non-Halo builds aren't being recognised for Club status on a Halo-related site is.... pretty silly.

Anyways. From here on, let's focus on the positives rather than getting bogged down in arguments.
 

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FANGS

Commanding Officer
Community Staff
Division Staff
First off, I'd like to very much thank Zaff for respecting my wishes and stepping away with only one further post. I appreciate that greatly.

Secondly, this is a Halo focused group, but that doesn't make anyone interested in other costumes less important to the community. So much of what we do to build costumes is transferrable to other costumes. The skills and techniques are all the same. It is everyone's choice if they want to hang out in a Halo focused group and talk about other costumes. It is, however, going to have to be with the understanding that this is a Halo group, and not a Bungie group. While we fully support discussions about costumes not Halo related, the club structure is going to be about Halo and Halo only.

Unfortunately, from time to time, myself and the 3 others that currently make up Division are going to be feather rufflers. As much as it pains me, I'm never going to make everyone happy all of the time. However, the goal is to always make sure that people feel like they were listened to and respected. I can't fix for you Zaff that you are upset with this group only being about Halo. But I am more than happy to work with you to help you feel included, if your choice is to stay here. No one is going to make you leave. No one is going to even suggest that you should. But if you choose to stay, it has to be with you accepting what this group is. You've made friends here I'm sure so I'm hoping you decide to stay and be a part of the community.
 
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transmut1

Member
Art thank you for the clear up on the time thing, that makes way more sense. :)
I love getting achievements on xbox and such, but i'm not going to worry about them on the site, they are nice little extra, but they don't govern my life.
I like meeting people here, learning new techniques and building stuff.

I have a huge back log of pictures and information for build threads of my own stuff, I just never have the time to get to uploading everything.
I would still love to represent the 405th though, I do about 12+ cons a year, and i'm always suited up. While I know I will never be "complete" on the suit or possibly some of my props, I would still love to rock that sticker.
Hopefully i'll finally be started on my new from scratch suit once all the new community stuff goes into effect and then I can do an actual wip thread for once. :)

Oh and I totally understand what you guys are trying to do with the Club and Community, it all makes sense to me, so no feathers ruffled here. :) But all this talk about feathers is making me hungry for chicken! ;)
 

transmut1

Member
Wait... you eat chicken with the feathers on?!? I think we might still need to talk a bit more. ;)
haha touché good sir! Actually i'm allergic to feathers, so chicken for me always has to be fully cleaned and totally skinless. Sadly nothing but grilled chicken at KFC for me. :(
 

Termhn

Jr Member
I think this would be very valid in most communities, but the problem is that, while the 405th did get its roots in Halo, it has since welcomed people from many other games, shows, etc. with just as much fervor as those from Halo. This isn't a case of a few people walking up to an already-exclusive club that want to join but don't fit in, it's a case of members of a broader club that are upset because they are getting "thrown out" because the club is now becoming more exclusive and they are being told they aren't a part of that. So if the 405th was always strictly Halo, which it hasn't been, then your points would be completely valid. However, as I see it, the 405th has become (over at least the past year that I've been here) just as welcoming to "non-Halo" costumers than Halo ones. So, I think Zaff has a point. That said, I also understand the sentiment of FANGS that we need to move forward and work out the bugs as we go or nothing will ever get accomplished
 
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RobotChicken

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, clubs, awards, rankings, etc are all simply frivolous tangents to why people should really be here. I'd suspect CerealKiller, Sandbagger, Carpathia, Longshot, etc didn't set out on their builds to impress anybody except themselves. Likewise, I personally couldn't care less if my own build gets judged, rated, whatever because its purpose isn't to impress anybody except the person wearing it. I think people are blowing this whole "club" thing out of proportion and detracting from what the community should really be about. If the 405th shut down tomorrow would I cancel my build? Nope.
 

Chernobyl

Sr Member
I love getting achievements on xbox and such, but i'm not going to worry about them on the site, they are nice little extra, but they don't govern my life.
And that's all this is about, when all's said and done. We're working out the bugs as we go, but at our core, we want people to feel accomplished for what they do on the 405th - whether it's building cool things, spending time creating resources for other people to use, or going on deployment with other members.

We certainly don't want to say 'you don't have a costume, so you can't be part of the community' - there's a layer of involvement for everybody. Even the non-Halo costumers will be recognised for what they've done and, at the end of the day, this is all about a name and a little badge. People shouldn't be getting hung up and upset over something like this - it's something we hope will motivate people to do their very best within the focus of this community. Unfortunately, there are going to be a few people who might feel excluded for this shift into a more 'official' group status, or who are uncomfortable with a shake-up of the status quo - but, unfortunately, change is sometimes a little turbulent.

At the end of the day, however: there's something for everybody. I'm not directly involved with the development of the Mantle, but I'm glad to see that the consideration has been taken into account that everybody will have a chance to prove themselves and earn a reputation within the community, even if they don't have a costume. We're worth more than just the sum of our outfits, and I, personally, don't mind so much that I might not get a special status, as long as my involvement here on the 405th has meant something.
 

Art Andrews

Community Owner
Community Staff
I also understand the sentiment of @FANGS that we need to move forward and work out the bugs as we go or nothing will ever get accomplished
This is an incredibly poignant point. Are we going to hit growing pains and run into issues? Absolutely. Should we halt all progress and efforts while we meander through endless "what if" scenarios? If we did, no progress would ever be made and while that might be what some desire, that isn't what we are here to achieve. With that said, at its core, the community really isn't changing that much. We are adding some things on and if members choose to be a part of those things, they are welcome to do so. If they choose not to be a part of them, well, life will more or less continue as it always have. Fretting about how someone might somehow get offended on the internet... just not a productive use of time.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
RobotChicken said:
You can't walk into a restaurant and order fish, then complain when the order arrives because it's fish instead of chicken and you wanted chicken. (Well, technically you can, but it's not being reasonable.) Who's picture is at the top of every page at this site? Master Chief. Why? Because this is a Halo-oriented site. You knew that when registering, so get over it already. It's totally reasonable that the only candidates eligible for this silly "glee club" thing are Halo-related builds because this is a Halo-related site. Period. If you have issue with that then simply ignore the fact a club exists at all and happily show your costumes in the applicable non-Halo forums (at this site), because that's where your other non-Halo (and Halo) fans will be. Drive your Chevy to the appropriate room of a car show if you want a ribbon because the Chrysler folks just aren't going to give you one regardless of how amazing your car looks - bottom line, it ain't a Chrysler and whining about it won't change that fact. (And those Chrysler people are probably too savvy to be fooled by placing a Chrysler emblem on your Chevy - it's still a Chevy.) Yes, the event is a convention, but the booth is 405th - and 405th means Halo, so sit down and eat your fish. :behave
Whose picture was at the top of the page when I joined? Nobody. There was no banner image. What theme were the projects on the first 2+ pages of the forums when I joined? Well, let's see, I recall Iron Man, War Machine, Gundam, Gears of War, Crysis, someone pushing MLP, a few general "forum game" type threads like "word association" and whatnot...I think maybe, MAYBE there were 5 halo-related builds in those first few pages, started two or three years prior just being commented on, no actual build activity for months just a lot of commenting, questions, and kudos for their impressive work. What was my first impression of what the 405th was about for the first several months of being here? That it was a costuming group with a fair bit of emphasis on armor builds (as opposed to cloth) and Pepakura. Nothing at all really said "This is a Halo group for Halo fans to build Halo costumes and props for Halo themed events. Halo. Halo. Halohalo. Halo." So yea, Halo was not foremost on my mind nor even in the forums when I joined, so to mix fandoms here a little, "Excuuuuuse me, princess" for not feeling this was a purely "Halo or gtho" group here.

Chernobyl said:
That... was probably a little more forthright and could do with some revising to take the edge off, but your point's pretty valid. Just try next time to not be quite so... rash... when responding to such a delicate subject? It's obvious that people have got some pretty large concerns about whether they'll feel like they're valued and belong to the community post-Mantle, we need to be supportive of each other instead of saying 'put up and shut up'.
No, it's fine. I pull no punches and sugar-coat nothing. As the old saying goes, "if you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Or perhaps "don't dish it out if you can't take it." Honestly a good dose of snark now and then is a welcome break from the PR pat-answers.

Art Andrews said:
We are adding some things on and if members choose to be a part of those things, they are welcome to do so.
So long as they conform and give up what they are most passionate about in favor of what the Club determines they should be interested in. That's kinda what I've been digging at here. Not everyone in the 405th is here for Halo. Not everyone who came to the 405th for Halo is still here for Halo. The Club charter basically says "unless you're Halo, you have no officially recognized/endorsed/accepted 405th presence at any event, convention or otherwise." If nothing else that leaves no room for the non-costume-building but still Halo-connected members of the community to, say, set up a booth with a focus on pep modeling, molding/casting, etc.. The Club Charter, and indeed the Club itself, implies that a member of the community cannot in any way be a part of the 405th's convention presence whatsoever unless they are in a costume, or assisting someone who is in a costume. Not everyone here has a costume. Not everyone here even wants a costume. But what if they still want to be part of the Club? To sit at the booth, to be on a panel, to go to other events to promote the OTHER 75% of the community without which the costuming community would not exist. The modelers, the unfolders, the prop makers and printers, and those like Chernobyl/Arcanine whose focus has been geared more towards keeping things clean, clutter free, and organized so that the precious builders can actually find the resources they need to make their builds in the first place. "Ignore that man behind the curtain!" Just doesn't feel right, you know? And then to brush it all off like it's just a simple matter of choice. "Oh if you want to be a part of it you can and if you don't that's fine too." It's not that simple. The Club charter not only ignores the large number of non-Halo costumers, but the non-costumers who make it possible for the costumers to be costumers. I don't know if maybe there's room for any sort of "honorary" tier that could be worked in somewhere perhaps? I mean I still don't feel I have any kind of answer for why we even need the Club to begin with, but if it's going to happen can we try to keep it as all-inclusive this community as possible? I can understand wanting to keep it to members of this community whose accounts are in good standing, who have presented their work here (builds, models, etc.) so we call all get a feel for what they're capable of and not just handing club memberships out to someone who just drops a line to the facebook groups or to members who have just joined and don't have any kind of "portfolio" available, or to members who rarely ever log in, almost never participate in the forums, and whose sparse interactions with the community have been marred with reprehensible behavior. I get wanting 405th club members who can represent the 405th with sufficient maturity and professionalism. I just feel it really alienates a lot of current members and limits a lot of potential members who, like me, might have been drawn to this community for reasons other than Halo. When I'm at the Tower Destiny group over on FB and someone's looking for armor models, I send them here. When I come across people looking for medieval/fantasy armor, even if it's not specifically Skyrim, I point them here to Zombiegrimm's thread. I don't know how many, if any, of those people stick around and become members, but the point is people come here for more than just Halo. I know Halo is where it got it's start. I just feel like the community as a whole has evolved far beyond that little box and that's something that should be encouraged more, not simply accepted, and I feel it's an opportunity for the 405th to grow and it's being squandered.
 

Chernobyl

Sr Member
Zaff, I realise that you're still upset about some of the changes that are happening here, but for the sake of the forum and this thread in particular, I'm going to have to ask you to back down a little. This argument is getting tiresome, and pushing a point when you've already had the story explained to you multiple times is beginning to wear on my nerves a little, regardless of my patience.

What was my first impression of what the 405th was about for the first several months of being here? That it was a costuming group with a fair bit of emphasis on armor builds (as opposed to cloth) and Pepakura. Nothing at all really said "This is a Halo group for Halo fans to build Halo costumes and props for Halo themed events. Halo. Halo. Halohalo. Halo." So yea, Halo was not foremost on my mind nor even in the forums when I joined, so to mix fandoms here a little, "Excuuuuuse me, princess" for not feeling this was a purely "Halo or gtho" group here.
That's changed now. The main focus of this forum has always been about Halo, regardless of at which time period you joined.

So long as they conform and give up what they are most passionate about in favor of what the Club determines they should be interested in.
I'm tired of repeating myself here: nobody's asking you to give up what you're passionate about. WE HAVE AN OFF-TOPIC BUILDS FORUM FOR OTHER SUBJECTS.

The Club Charter, and indeed the Club itself, implies that a member of the community cannot in any way be a part of the 405th's convention presence whatsoever unless they are in a costume, or assisting someone who is in a costume.
Again, wrong. Non-Club members can still attend conventions, hang around as part of the 405th at deployments. We're not telling people to suit up or shove off - we're simply adding a layer of recognition for those that do. If you don't come in costume, GREAT. Feel free to hang around the 405th booth, maybe help out costumers as a handler - there are ways for non-costumed members to represent. We're a community that pulls together - and we need all the pull we can get. We want members who can represent the very best of this community, in or out of costume. Grab a 405th lanyard, maybe wear one of our shirts - not having a costume DOES NOT restrict you from maintaining a 405th presence.

Not everyone here has a costume. Not everyone here even wants a costume. But what if they still want to be part of the Club? To sit at the booth, to be on a panel, to go to other events to promote the OTHER 75% of the community without which the costuming community would not exist. The modelers, the unfolders, the prop makers and printers, and those like Chernobyl/Arcanine whose focus has been geared more towards keeping things clean, clutter free, and organized so that the precious builders can actually find the resources they need to make their builds in the first place.
This is the purpose of the Trophy system - to give the outstanding members of this community some recognition and praise. I, personally, do my work in the Archive because I love the community - not because I want people to go 'Hey, Rosie! You've done some amazing work, would you mind coming to the next con as a guest of honour?'. I don't expect a reward for the hard work I do - the fact that so many people are benefiting from my work is praise enough. I wake up in the morning to at least three new post quotes, five new Inbox messages and a metric ton of Likes - that's 'thanks, Rosie' enough for me. The community speaks for itself, and no amount of special nameplates, Trophies or special Club tiers is going to turn me away from the fact that I do what I do out of love for the community I'm in. Stuff the rewards.

people come here for more than just Halo. I know Halo is where it got it's start. I just feel like the community as a whole has evolved far beyond that little box and that's something that should be encouraged more, not simply accepted, and I feel it's an opportunity for the 405th to grow and it's being squandered.
Yet again - we welcome non-Halo builds. Please stop being sour about the community re-focusing on its roots - we all realise you're comfortable with things as they are, and that this shift back to a more narrow focus may be scary and upsetting for you, but honestly - if we continued on along such loose and disorganised lines, nothing would ever get done. The Mantle is a decent breath of fresh air into a community that has long needed some structure and organisation - but we're not abandoning the diversity of the community. We're simply putting further focus on the roots of our interest - Halo.

Now, for the final time - please, drop the argument, and if you have further concerns, I invite you to speak to either Art Andrews or FANGS privately - but this discussion is getting tiresome, and it's evident that you're not going to give a little room here.
 
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transmut1

Member
Ok, Zaff maybe I can help here.

I think they are saying you can go to a con, and you can say you're on the 405th and that's how you learned things, or that's where you display stuff, but you're not in the 405th club of halo armor builds. So what if you don't have a sticker?, it's just a sticker, although I think it only says 405th member on it (don't quote me there), not halo only, so realistically anyone should be able to get a sticker.

They are just adding a halo only club to the 405th, and extra bonus level if you will. So maybe that warrants a new sticker and emblem (for the club), just for the halo armors, cause then everyone else would want one for their armor type, hmmmm. Keeping that aside for another debate because that has really been beaten to death here.

You are still a part of the 405th, you can go to cons and say you're on the 405th, or a part of it, but if you're not registered in the club with halo armor, then you can't go to a con and say your a 405th club member, get it?
Am I getting that right @Art and FANGS?

What I remember when visiting the 405th in the past way before I joined a couple years ago, it was always talked about on bungie and it was always referred to as a halo armor building site.

Hope that helps.
 
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FANGS

Commanding Officer
Community Staff
Division Staff
Exactly. This isn't about taking anything away from anyone. Its about expanding what we offer to those who wish to keep going.
 

Zaff

Well-Known Member
Chernobyl said:
That's changed now. The main focus of this forum has always been about Halo, regardless of at which time period you joined.
Funny, because the only "change" is people SAYING this is a Halo-focused community while more and more NON-Halo builds keep cropping up.

Chernobyl said:
I'm tired of repeating myself here: nobody's asking you to give up what you're passionate about. WE HAVE AN OFF-TOPIC BUILDS FORUM FOR OTHER SUBJECTS.
As am I, but apparently it still bears repeating because I'm not talking about the bloody freakin' FORUMS! Stop pounding a point that bears no relevance on a CLUB CENTRIC COMPLAINT. There. Does that cut to the meat of it yet or are we going for another bout of "beat around the bloody bush?!" I KNOW non-Halo stuff is permitted in the FORUMS. THAT is not my issue. I don't know how that keeps getting lost not only on you but on everyone who tries to dismiss my concerns with this irrelevant bit of fluff.

Chernobyl said:
Again, wrong. Non-Club members can still attend conventions,
As spectators only. Go ahead and re-read the club charter. The exact wording is "may attend as part of the attending public." You are not a member, you are merely a convention attendee as per the Club charter itself. Those are not my words.

Chernobyl said:
hang around as part of the 405th at deployments
As spectators/handlers only. Again, "as part of the attending public." The one and ONLY provision for non-costumed members to in any way be included in (but still not recognized by) the 405th Club and convention presence is as a handler. Which means you don't participate in any part of the convention unless your charge is heading that way. Want to catch a panel? You're a handler. You have to stick by your costumed confederate to make sure none of the "attending public" causes any problems with them or gets caught in their blind spot (with their head fully enclosed in a helmet, there's a lot of blind spots to content with, I get that, I'm not disrespecting the duty of a handler just saying that shouldn't be the only option).

Chernobyl said:
We want members who can represent the very best of this community, in or out of costume. Grab a 405th lanyard, maybe wear one of our shirts - not having a costume DOES NOT restrict you from maintaining a 405th presence.
You're just not in the club, recognized by the club, an "honorary member" of the club or in any official capacity in any way a "part" of the club unless you have a costume. That is a COSTUME club, not a 405th club, because the 405th is comprised of far more than just costume builders.

Chernobyl said:
Now, for the final time - please, drop the argument, and if you have further concerns, I invite you to speak to either Art Andrews or FANGS privately - but this discussion is getting tiresome, and it's evident that you're not going to give a little room here.
If you don't feel you have the time, patience, or merely the desire to continue this, that's fine. I certainly have no reason to hold that against you. But I will not "let it drop" until I get something more than brush-offs and PR runarounds, or at the very least someone who actually understands WHAT it is that has me so agitated rather than constantly pulling it back to the forums which is not at all what ANY of this discussion is about.

FANGS said:
Exactly. This isn't about taking anything away from anyone. Its about expanding what we offer to those who wish to keep going.
But with all due respect, it's not. It's not about expanding. It's about excluding and narrowing the focus to utterly ignore the work of others because they don't fit into a tiny box. It is a solitary offering to a select few whose passions are aligned along a singularly narrow focus. It's "Halo" or "stay the Hal-out."
 
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Art Andrews

Community Owner
Community Staff
Zaff, it is unfortunate that you see this as exclusionary. However, because we see this in a different light, we are pressing forward with what we believe to be a great new opportunity for the community. You can continue to argue it, and perhaps some of the members will continue to engage you, but as for the staff, we have done our best to make ourselves clear and because we have so much work ahead of us, we can't continue to make the same responses again and again. I truly hope, in time, you come to see that this additional is not what you now believe it to be, but even if that never changes, I hope you will continue to find satisfaction and enjoyment in the community.
 
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Zaff

Well-Known Member
The club. Does it or does it not exclude all non-Halo AND non-costumed members of the 405th community from being recognized in any official capacity? A club member must be BOTH Halo-focused AND possess not only a Halo costume, but one of APPROVED craftsmanship, quality, and "content" (no spin-offs, hybrids blending other games, etc.). Please, PLEASE, try to spin that as NOT being exclusionary. "I truly hope, in time, you come to see that this additional is not what you now believe it to be," but by the very nature and defining terms laid out in the club charter it is PRECISELY what I "believe" it to be.

Edit: And you know, I decided to give the RPF yet another chance, just to see if anything had changed. And it's official, we might as well brand 405th the home of Destiny costuming resources because RPF didn't even have a tenth of what's here, and what they DO have came from here. 20 pages of results for the search "Destiny." Maybe 30 threads from that list actually are about Bungie's Destiny. Maybe 12 are actually anything costume related (at least 4 or 5 of which are just "hey, I'd love to make this, anybody have any clue where to start?" The rest have maybe two progress posts before going necro. If Foxleader can be believed (he's a decent guy but he has a flair for over embellishment) the 50st "hates" anything non-Star Wars, so there's no point checking there. Predatorium is Predator only. Dented Helmet is not simply Star Wars-centric, it seems to be exclusively bounty hunters with a none-too subtle emphasis on the Fetts. So guess what that leaves? 405th, or pound salt. And guess where pounding salt will lead? Fire up your search engines, but don't expect to get far because you're going to end up right back here. Why fight it? All the Iron Man and Gundam and other such themes, they have their comic book and anime cosplaying communities for tips, resources, etc. When it comes to Destiny, we're it. The 405th has the most extensive collection of resources and modelers with the skill and willingness to free-hand or convert from the .stl generator. 90% of what I DID find on the RPF was one-off free-hand stuff that, although the desire was there, the quality (and more to the point of being community driven, the ability to share resources) wasn't. We're the best bet out there, and you want to just toss it in the closet and say "well sure we'll let it hang around but we don't care about it enough to give it any real attention or recognition." And I just don't get why.
 
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