"Yes mum, but he started it."
I dunno, is that a Chrysler car or a Chevy? lolI don't care you little brat you're both in trouble now go sit in the naughty corner 'COS I BLOODY WELL SAID SO 'COS I'M YOUR MOTHER. Or do I have to turn this car around?
I dunno, is that a Chrysler car or a Chevy? lol
Again - all true. That being said, we need to work on a system that, while celebrating our main focus, also allows people who don't necessarily feel drawn to Halo in particular, to still engage with the community in a worthwhile fashion. Zaff draws some good points and bad points - we don't want to ruffle any feathers of make anybody feel left out, regardless of which costume they've made, but we do need to place the main focus of this community on what we're all here for - and that's Halo.A lot of the arguments I've read here are just flat out invalid with respect to the "rules" of this new club thing. If somebody doesn't agree with the rules of a game then they simply shouldn't play the game. If they want to play because it looks fun then they need to understand they're not authorized to change the rules of a game to suit them (unless the other players agree to the changes). But going on and on about why your non-fluorescent clothes don't glow under the blacklight and asking to see the manager for a different light is not logical.
haha touché good sir! Actually i'm allergic to feathers, so chicken for me always has to be fully cleaned and totally skinless. Sadly nothing but grilled chicken at KFC for me.Wait... you eat chicken with the feathers on?!? I think we might still need to talk a bit more.
I think this would be very valid in most communities, but the problem is that, while the 405th did get its roots in Halo, it has since welcomed people from many other games, shows, etc. with just as much fervor as those from Halo. This isn't a case of a few people walking up to an already-exclusive club that want to join but don't fit in, it's a case of members of a broader club that are upset because they are getting "thrown out" because the club is now becoming more exclusive and they are being told they aren't a part of that. So if the 405th was always strictly Halo, which it hasn't been, then your points would be completely valid. However, as I see it, the 405th has become (over at least the past year that I've been here) just as welcoming to "non-Halo" costumers than Halo ones. So, I think Zaff has a point. That said, I also understand the sentiment of FANGS that we need to move forward and work out the bugs as we go or nothing will ever get accomplished-snip-
And that's all this is about, when all's said and done. We're working out the bugs as we go, but at our core, we want people to feel accomplished for what they do on the 405th - whether it's building cool things, spending time creating resources for other people to use, or going on deployment with other members.I love getting achievements on xbox and such, but i'm not going to worry about them on the site, they are nice little extra, but they don't govern my life.
This is an incredibly poignant point. Are we going to hit growing pains and run into issues? Absolutely. Should we halt all progress and efforts while we meander through endless "what if" scenarios? If we did, no progress would ever be made and while that might be what some desire, that isn't what we are here to achieve. With that said, at its core, the community really isn't changing that much. We are adding some things on and if members choose to be a part of those things, they are welcome to do so. If they choose not to be a part of them, well, life will more or less continue as it always have. Fretting about how someone might somehow get offended on the internet... just not a productive use of time.
Whose picture was at the top of the page when I joined? Nobody. There was no banner image. What theme were the projects on the first 2+ pages of the forums when I joined? Well, let's see, I recall Iron Man, War Machine, Gundam, Gears of War, Crysis, someone pushing MLP, a few general "forum game" type threads like "word association" and whatnot...I think maybe, MAYBE there were 5 halo-related builds in those first few pages, started two or three years prior just being commented on, no actual build activity for months just a lot of commenting, questions, and kudos for their impressive work. What was my first impression of what the 405th was about for the first several months of being here? That it was a costuming group with a fair bit of emphasis on armor builds (as opposed to cloth) and Pepakura. Nothing at all really said "This is a Halo group for Halo fans to build Halo costumes and props for Halo themed events. Halo. Halo. Halohalo. Halo." So yea, Halo was not foremost on my mind nor even in the forums when I joined, so to mix fandoms here a little, "Excuuuuuse me, princess" for not feeling this was a purely "Halo or gtho" group here.RobotChicken said:You can't walk into a restaurant and order fish, then complain when the order arrives because it's fish instead of chicken and you wanted chicken. (Well, technically you can, but it's not being reasonable.) Who's picture is at the top of every page at this site? Master Chief. Why? Because this is a Halo-oriented site. You knew that when registering, so get over it already. It's totally reasonable that the only candidates eligible for this silly "glee club" thing are Halo-related builds because this is a Halo-related site. Period. If you have issue with that then simply ignore the fact a club exists at all and happily show your costumes in the applicable non-Halo forums (at this site), because that's where your other non-Halo (and Halo) fans will be. Drive your Chevy to the appropriate room of a car show if you want a ribbon because the Chrysler folks just aren't going to give you one regardless of how amazing your car looks - bottom line, it ain't a Chrysler and whining about it won't change that fact. (And those Chrysler people are probably too savvy to be fooled by placing a Chrysler emblem on your Chevy - it's still a Chevy.) Yes, the event is a convention, but the booth is 405th - and 405th means Halo, so sit down and eat your fish. :behave
No, it's fine. I pull no punches and sugar-coat nothing. As the old saying goes, "if you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Or perhaps "don't dish it out if you can't take it." Honestly a good dose of snark now and then is a welcome break from the PR pat-answers.Chernobyl said:That... was probably a little more forthright and could do with some revising to take the edge off, but your point's pretty valid. Just try next time to not be quite so... rash... when responding to such a delicate subject? It's obvious that people have got some pretty large concerns about whether they'll feel like they're valued and belong to the community post-Mantle, we need to be supportive of each other instead of saying 'put up and shut up'.
So long as they conform and give up what they are most passionate about in favor of what the Club determines they should be interested in. That's kinda what I've been digging at here. Not everyone in the 405th is here for Halo. Not everyone who came to the 405th for Halo is still here for Halo. The Club charter basically says "unless you're Halo, you have no officially recognized/endorsed/accepted 405th presence at any event, convention or otherwise." If nothing else that leaves no room for the non-costume-building but still Halo-connected members of the community to, say, set up a booth with a focus on pep modeling, molding/casting, etc.. The Club Charter, and indeed the Club itself, implies that a member of the community cannot in any way be a part of the 405th's convention presence whatsoever unless they are in a costume, or assisting someone who is in a costume. Not everyone here has a costume. Not everyone here even wants a costume. But what if they still want to be part of the Club? To sit at the booth, to be on a panel, to go to other events to promote the OTHER 75% of the community without which the costuming community would not exist. The modelers, the unfolders, the prop makers and printers, and those like Chernobyl/Arcanine whose focus has been geared more towards keeping things clean, clutter free, and organized so that the precious builders can actually find the resources they need to make their builds in the first place. "Ignore that man behind the curtain!" Just doesn't feel right, you know? And then to brush it all off like it's just a simple matter of choice. "Oh if you want to be a part of it you can and if you don't that's fine too." It's not that simple. The Club charter not only ignores the large number of non-Halo costumers, but the non-costumers who make it possible for the costumers to be costumers. I don't know if maybe there's room for any sort of "honorary" tier that could be worked in somewhere perhaps? I mean I still don't feel I have any kind of answer for why we even need the Club to begin with, but if it's going to happen can we try to keep it as all-inclusive this community as possible? I can understand wanting to keep it to members of this community whose accounts are in good standing, who have presented their work here (builds, models, etc.) so we call all get a feel for what they're capable of and not just handing club memberships out to someone who just drops a line to the facebook groups or to members who have just joined and don't have any kind of "portfolio" available, or to members who rarely ever log in, almost never participate in the forums, and whose sparse interactions with the community have been marred with reprehensible behavior. I get wanting 405th club members who can represent the 405th with sufficient maturity and professionalism. I just feel it really alienates a lot of current members and limits a lot of potential members who, like me, might have been drawn to this community for reasons other than Halo. When I'm at the Tower Destiny group over on FB and someone's looking for armor models, I send them here. When I come across people looking for medieval/fantasy armor, even if it's not specifically Skyrim, I point them here to Zombiegrimm's thread. I don't know how many, if any, of those people stick around and become members, but the point is people come here for more than just Halo. I know Halo is where it got it's start. I just feel like the community as a whole has evolved far beyond that little box and that's something that should be encouraged more, not simply accepted, and I feel it's an opportunity for the 405th to grow and it's being squandered.Art Andrews said:We are adding some things on and if members choose to be a part of those things, they are welcome to do so.
That's changed now. The main focus of this forum has always been about Halo, regardless of at which time period you joined.What was my first impression of what the 405th was about for the first several months of being here? That it was a costuming group with a fair bit of emphasis on armor builds (as opposed to cloth) and Pepakura. Nothing at all really said "This is a Halo group for Halo fans to build Halo costumes and props for Halo themed events. Halo. Halo. Halohalo. Halo." So yea, Halo was not foremost on my mind nor even in the forums when I joined, so to mix fandoms here a little, "Excuuuuuse me, princess" for not feeling this was a purely "Halo or gtho" group here.
I'm tired of repeating myself here: nobody's asking you to give up what you're passionate about. WE HAVE AN OFF-TOPIC BUILDS FORUM FOR OTHER SUBJECTS.So long as they conform and give up what they are most passionate about in favor of what the Club determines they should be interested in.
Again, wrong. Non-Club members can still attend conventions, hang around as part of the 405th at deployments. We're not telling people to suit up or shove off - we're simply adding a layer of recognition for those that do. If you don't come in costume, GREAT. Feel free to hang around the 405th booth, maybe help out costumers as a handler - there are ways for non-costumed members to represent. We're a community that pulls together - and we need all the pull we can get. We want members who can represent the very best of this community, in or out of costume. Grab a 405th lanyard, maybe wear one of our shirts - not having a costume DOES NOT restrict you from maintaining a 405th presence.The Club Charter, and indeed the Club itself, implies that a member of the community cannot in any way be a part of the 405th's convention presence whatsoever unless they are in a costume, or assisting someone who is in a costume.
This is the purpose of the Trophy system - to give the outstanding members of this community some recognition and praise. I, personally, do my work in the Archive because I love the community - not because I want people to go 'Hey, Rosie! You've done some amazing work, would you mind coming to the next con as a guest of honour?'. I don't expect a reward for the hard work I do - the fact that so many people are benefiting from my work is praise enough. I wake up in the morning to at least three new post quotes, five new Inbox messages and a metric ton of Likes - that's 'thanks, Rosie' enough for me. The community speaks for itself, and no amount of special nameplates, Trophies or special Club tiers is going to turn me away from the fact that I do what I do out of love for the community I'm in. Stuff the rewards.Not everyone here has a costume. Not everyone here even wants a costume. But what if they still want to be part of the Club? To sit at the booth, to be on a panel, to go to other events to promote the OTHER 75% of the community without which the costuming community would not exist. The modelers, the unfolders, the prop makers and printers, and those like Chernobyl/Arcanine whose focus has been geared more towards keeping things clean, clutter free, and organized so that the precious builders can actually find the resources they need to make their builds in the first place.
Yet again - we welcome non-Halo builds. Please stop being sour about the community re-focusing on its roots - we all realise you're comfortable with things as they are, and that this shift back to a more narrow focus may be scary and upsetting for you, but honestly - if we continued on along such loose and disorganised lines, nothing would ever get done. The Mantle is a decent breath of fresh air into a community that has long needed some structure and organisation - but we're not abandoning the diversity of the community. We're simply putting further focus on the roots of our interest - Halo.people come here for more than just Halo. I know Halo is where it got it's start. I just feel like the community as a whole has evolved far beyond that little box and that's something that should be encouraged more, not simply accepted, and I feel it's an opportunity for the 405th to grow and it's being squandered.
Funny, because the only "change" is people SAYING this is a Halo-focused community while more and more NON-Halo builds keep cropping up.Chernobyl said:That's changed now. The main focus of this forum has always been about Halo, regardless of at which time period you joined.
As am I, but apparently it still bears repeating because I'm not talking about the bloody freakin' FORUMS! Stop pounding a point that bears no relevance on a CLUB CENTRIC COMPLAINT. There. Does that cut to the meat of it yet or are we going for another bout of "beat around the bloody bush?!" I KNOW non-Halo stuff is permitted in the FORUMS. THAT is not my issue. I don't know how that keeps getting lost not only on you but on everyone who tries to dismiss my concerns with this irrelevant bit of fluff.Chernobyl said:I'm tired of repeating myself here: nobody's asking you to give up what you're passionate about. WE HAVE AN OFF-TOPIC BUILDS FORUM FOR OTHER SUBJECTS.
As spectators only. Go ahead and re-read the club charter. The exact wording is "may attend as part of the attending public." You are not a member, you are merely a convention attendee as per the Club charter itself. Those are not my words.Chernobyl said:Again, wrong. Non-Club members can still attend conventions,
As spectators/handlers only. Again, "as part of the attending public." The one and ONLY provision for non-costumed members to in any way be included in (but still not recognized by) the 405th Club and convention presence is as a handler. Which means you don't participate in any part of the convention unless your charge is heading that way. Want to catch a panel? You're a handler. You have to stick by your costumed confederate to make sure none of the "attending public" causes any problems with them or gets caught in their blind spot (with their head fully enclosed in a helmet, there's a lot of blind spots to content with, I get that, I'm not disrespecting the duty of a handler just saying that shouldn't be the only option).Chernobyl said:hang around as part of the 405th at deployments
You're just not in the club, recognized by the club, an "honorary member" of the club or in any official capacity in any way a "part" of the club unless you have a costume. That is a COSTUME club, not a 405th club, because the 405th is comprised of far more than just costume builders.Chernobyl said:We want members who can represent the very best of this community, in or out of costume. Grab a 405th lanyard, maybe wear one of our shirts - not having a costume DOES NOT restrict you from maintaining a 405th presence.
If you don't feel you have the time, patience, or merely the desire to continue this, that's fine. I certainly have no reason to hold that against you. But I will not "let it drop" until I get something more than brush-offs and PR runarounds, or at the very least someone who actually understands WHAT it is that has me so agitated rather than constantly pulling it back to the forums which is not at all what ANY of this discussion is about.Chernobyl said:
But with all due respect, it's not. It's not about expanding. It's about excluding and narrowing the focus to utterly ignore the work of others because they don't fit into a tiny box. It is a solitary offering to a select few whose passions are aligned along a singularly narrow focus. It's "Halo" or "stay the Hal-out."FANGS said:Exactly. This isn't about taking anything away from anyone. Its about expanding what we offer to those who wish to keep going.