Updates for the 405th in 2015! ALL PLEASE READ!

[Art Andrews]

2015 is set to be an incredible year for the 405th. As many of you know, we stepped into some very big shoes in July of 2014 and it has taken us a while to get our bearings, but we are now ready to move forward with two major projects this year:

1) 405th Club implementation
2) Transition to a modern software platform

While the second task is mostly a behind-the-scenes thing, finally solidifying the club aspect of this community and getting it off the ground will involve all of us!

For those who haven’t looked over it, you can review the basic tenants and layout of the club here:

http://www.405th.com/faq.php?faq=405th_costuming_club

With this in mind, we are making our first Division Staff appointment:

405th member, FANGS has graciously accepted the position of DXO, which means she will serve the community as the acting President and will preside over the staff. For those who may not know FANGS (Angela), she has been a long time member of the 501st and has served in some of the highest offices of that club, which has provided her with a lot of experience in this area. While I will continue to manage the technical aspects of the community (the server/software side), Angela will be replacing me as the primary point of contact for all the day to day issues, questions and concerns.

Both Ashuraa and Masterchief0624 have also stepped up to help us get the club up and running; to get Regiments formalized and get memberships approved which is going to be a tremendous task!

So, what are the next steps? Ashuraa and Masterchief0624 will be reaching out to the current moderators of each of our regiments to get the regiments officially recognized. Once that is done, we will begin the process of electing a Regiment CO. Finally, we will begin taking applications for “Deployed” status membership. It is going to be a little tricky this first time, but we are pretty excited to get it off the ground and to finally get things going!

 

[Chernobyl]

Somewhere we are not understanding one another. I said we would not let just anyone who has manned an event run for office. And no, not just ANY costuming-owning member can organize and event or run for Office. A DEPLOYED member, who meets the criteria you listed above can coordinate an event as designated or allowed by their unit leader. A DEPLOYED member can also run for office. As you seem to be pointing out, the ownership of a costume IS the primary difference, and we do think that makes a difference in the overall perspective of a member. Does it mean someone with a costume will be a better leader than one without? Not necessarily, but we feel, since the club aspect of this community does primarily revolve around costume-centric events that it is a good general idea to have a costumer at the head of each Regiment. You seem to be seeing a huge contradiction there, but I am still not seeing it.

No, but as I've pointed out in our private correspondence, my issue is not with the fact that only costuming members can run for office. I'm tiring of having to point this out, so please let this be the last time I have to mention this. I really don't want to get bogged down with half-drawn conjecture when I've taken such great pains to make sure my arguments are both clear and concise - I say exactly what I mean, and nothing more. Please don't extrapolate any hidden intentions from my points, there simply isn't any there to be had.

From Article IV - Elections:
Active Deployed members in good standing are eligible to run for CO.

From Article I - Membership:
A Deployed Member is eligible to:
Run for and/or hold elected or appointed offices in the 405th.

So... the Mantle says any Deployed Member in good standing can run for office.

Perhaps I worded that poorly (even then, I don't see how it contradicts the Mantle) but in essence, what I was saying is that someone manning a table is not enough to qualify them to run for office. Again.. not seeing a contradiction there, or where that is cherry-picking, but if you are still seeing one, let's get it hammered out.

Point as above - you're extrapolating. I never said that I want non-costuming members to be able to run for office, I simply want all Regimental levels to be able to affect a decision about who their leader is - based upon the assumption that a Regimental leader will make decisions that affect the entire Regiment, not simply costuming-only members. I have never expressed a desire to have non-costuming members be given the opportunity to run for office - in fact, I've said on multiple occasions that I support a process which allows the most skilled and qualified members of a Regiment to be allowed to run for office. It's my belief that only through attending events, understanding how much organisation goes into those events, and having experience with organising events themselves, can people truly understand and become capable of higher-level organisation. This is how promotion works - people are given higher responsibility based on their ability.

On this point, I absolutely understand your argument, but I don't agree that this approach is what is best for the community as a whole. Is it the most even-handed? Sure. Can't argue that. 1 man, 1 vote and all that. Can't argue that 1:1 isn't pretty even from a mathematical standpoint, but there are other things to consider, some of which you have pretty much helped make my point for me. I have written you privately about this, so I will just summarize my feelings here.

• The Regiments and anything pertaining to the club aspect of this community will ALWAYS be costume-centric.
• The major events that these clubs attend will predominantly be costume-centric.
• Because we have made room for non-costuming members (most costuming clubs don't) the number of non-costuming members to costuming members will be horrendously skewed towards non-costuming members.
• If allowed to vote, non-costuming members would always have a majority, yet the club and events are costume-centric.
• This means non-costuming members would be able to dictate to costuming members how things are going to be in a costume-centric club.

I just can't see the logic in allowing that.

Again, consider the following as a rebuttal:

• The regiments and anything pertaining to the club may be costuming-centric, but are also geared to more than simply costumes
• The major events may be costume-centric, but also focus on non-costuming members
• The ratio of costume-owning members to non-costuming members will always be skewed. This argument has no basis or foundation, it's a simple fact.
• If not allowed to vote, Regimental power falls solely within a minority despite Regimental decisions affecting the entire Regiment
• This means that non-costuming members will have to abide by the decisions of a minority

The 405th may be focused towards costuming, true - however, it's my belief that you're placing an extreme focus on costuming, to the detriment of the community at large. There is a place for both sides of the community, regardless of who has a costume, and I believe that this balance needs to be found, rather than simply saying 'well, we want to focus on this' and negatively impacting the community at large. You're forgetting that the community makes the 405th what it is - not the public presence. Zaff still makes a decent point in saying that auxiliary members - such as myself - are integral to this forum's function. Recognise that the community is nothing without everyone working together - celebrate the costumes, award prestige for achievements. There is nothing wrong with this at all - I support the choice to recognise hard work. What I don't support is the idea that some members are more equal to this community's maintenance than others simply by dint of circumstance or finance, when in actual fact the community only thrives by the inclusion of all components.

The costuming part of this community is a small minority compared to the overall community at large. Let's not forget that - let's celebrate the community and exercise some fairness and inclusion at all levels, rather than doling our privilege for the few.

 

[Spacemeat]

I have a proposal and you guys let me know what you think:

Type C and Type D are both allowed to vote.

Only Type D is allowed to run for office.
​

While in my gut, I don't think it's the fairest of options, it represents a compromise and the very least, a starting point for a discussion. If type C and D are allowed to vote, it allows costumers and non-costumers to have a voice in the matters of the regiment. But restricting the pool of candidates of the Type D still keeps the leadership firmly in the camp of those with costuming experience.

 

[Art Andrews]

@Chernobyl, @Spacemeat I hear you. Let me talk with the staff. You know I am not personally a fan of this ideal, but give us some time to discuss the pros and cons and its long term impact on the community as a whole.

 

[Art Andrews]

I am sorry to say that Zaff has been banned. I really did think we were going to get past this, but he simply refused to let it go and continued to hurl unfounded and untrue accusations and instead of looking for solutions he continued to antagonize.

There is a very wide berth between disagreement, even vehement disagreement and the type of character assassination Zaff was manufacturing. As I said earlier today, we have zero tolerance for such things.

While I regret his removal from the community, especially at a moment when we might of made some headway due to the patience and persistance of members like Chernobyl, Spacemeat, Cadet and others, we can only move forward.

 

[Crimmson]

( i have read the entire thread)

I like to believe that we all came here for the armor. not the prospect of becoming a modeler, unfolder or tutorial writer etc. the armor is what drew me here and more than likely you as well. i did not have a clue what 3d modeling was(still dont), i had no idea what pepakura was. i know that i wrote, once, way back what had attracted me here or how came to find the 405th. i dont remember that post but i remember that it was the armor that drew me here. i see that the armor will always be center stage, as such the "club" will be center stage, a prestige. i read and maybe understood wrong what some people have posted here but it feels like some people would be annoyed with only fully suited members to have a voice, until i read a post by Art stating why it has to be the costumed members with the "power" i can say i felt this way as well. I havent got an armor built yet, heck i have been stating that i will be starting one for as along as i have been here, but time is against me. my job simply doesnt allow me the time needed and before someone states if you time to iron out files you have time to build..... well lets just say that i ironed out those files at work in small gaps of time i had to myself, skipped lunch skipped breaks less sleep at night(i work 16 hr shifts)etc. when i finally come home i really prefer to play with my daughters. so for me attaining the prestige of being a club member will never happen, traveling to cons out of the question unless they coincide with my days off and are close by the furthest being Dallas for me that i would be willing to travel. i am content with being just a forum user/poster not everyone is content with this but they cant just force their way into the club because they feel it is not fair(my view how i interpreted thread posts), but would i aspire to be a club member... heck yes i would. so why am i writing this? maybe to spur a memory in you as to why you are here. i see people arguing about everyone having a voice, but we all already do. i really really do understand that not everyone can or has the means to be a club member( i.e has a full set of armor) i have the means to build one, but not the time others dont have the means but have the time and in no way am i showing off or putting someone down just making a point. i keep mentioning time and i just lost more of it due to my job, my schedule just changed from a one week shift to a two week shift with a week off in between but i have one day of travel before and after each shift so only 5 days off with my girls. so with this being said when can i build my armor and still have time for my daughters. so for me a secondary membership fits me just fine. what about you?

once again thanks @ArtAndrew and Adam(wherever you are)

The lone wolf
Crimmmson

p.s
i love you guys and gals and good luck on your builds

 

[Chernobyl]

I have a proposal and you guys let me know what you think:

Type C and Type D are both allowed to vote.

Only Type D is allowed to run for office.
​

While in my gut, I don't think it's the fairest of options, it represents a compromise and the very least, a starting point for a discussion. If type C and D are allowed to vote, it allows costumers and non-costumers to have a voice in the matters of the regiment. But restricting the pool of candidates of the Type D still keeps the leadership firmly in the camp of those with costuming experience.

It's not full equality, but it's certainly a start. I'd be happy enough with allowing any event-attending (note I said event, not convention) member to apply for a vote - at least then the pool gets opened up to non-costuming members with event experience, as opposed to simply a narrow pool of voters who both have costumes and who can also attend events. It's worth bearing mind that the two aren't mutually inclusive - not all costumers will be able to attend events, and not all event-goers will be costumers alone.

@Chernobyl, @Spacemeat I hear you. Let me talk with the staff. You know I am not personally a fan of this ideal, but give us some time to discuss the pros and cons and its long term impact on the community as a whole.

That's all I've ever asked for, rather than simply 'nah, this is the way things are'.

-snip-

What might work out fine for one person doesn't necessarily work for the majority. I personally won't be able to create costumes or attend deployments for at least a few years - my immigration has seen to that. However, I'm not gnawing on this point for my own satisfaction; I genuinely feel that there is room to be more inclusive to other members without simply saying 'costume or bust'.

I am sorry to say that Zaff has been banned. I really did think we were going to get past this, but he simply refused to let it go and continued to hurl unfounded and untrue accusations and instead of looking for solutions he continued to antagonize.

 

[Cadet]

I have a proposal and you guys let me know what you think:

Type C and Type D are both allowed to vote.

Only Type D is allowed to run for office.
​

While in my gut, I don't think it's the fairest of options, it represents a compromise and the very least, a starting point for a discussion. If type C and D are allowed to vote, it allows costumers and non-costumers to have a voice in the matters of the regiment. But restricting the pool of candidates of the Type D still keeps the leadership firmly in the camp of those with costuming experience.

I agree that this is a good option. Having been involved with costuming organizations since 2005, I understand where Art is coming from that there is a certain perspective that only comes from having actually been in costume at an event. I myself, after having so many bad experiences with the general public exhibiting poor behavior towards me while in costume have developed a certain (almost paranoid) sense for where and how the crowd is flowing around me.

At the same time, as I pointed out previously, there are some differences between the 501st and the 405th that allows the 501st to be very active and "easier" to join while having the same costume owning requirement, that we might have to take into account when it comes to defining an "event" and allowing more people who are active in their regiment (actually contributing in some way but just haven't completed their costume yet, but are working towards it) to have a voice in the leadership.

Also, I just want everyone to know, I'm having a really good time.
It's like, we're real soldiers!

 

[foxleader]

art what have you done to us.

 

[Chernobyl]

art what have you done to us.

You may have to be less melodramatic and more specific.

 

[foxleader]

The student ascended mount hikimori with unease in his heart and nothing in his pockets. After nine days and nights of arduous climbing, he came to the house of the master, which was nothing more than the sky. The student sat before the master for nine more days and nine more nights, until hunger and thirst clawed at his body and the piercing gaze of the master tore at his soul.

"Ask of me one question," said the master.

"Master," said the student, "what is the difference between a club and a commuity?"

"It is this," said the master, "in a club you can vote and be head of a section but you can not be the same and not all can vote. You can be different in a commuity, and be the same and all be able to vote, and have a section head ."

The student sat beside the master and meditated on this for forty days. During this time he weathered the elements and drank one cup of water a day, and ate one grain of rice. At the end of the forty days the student was emaciated, pained in his blatter, burned by the sun, chapped by the cold, stung by the rain and frozen by the snow. The master still was hale and healthy.

The student said, "Master, I do not understand your wisdom."

The master said, "What wisdom? You asked a question and I answered."

 

[Chernobyl]

-wat-

The actual.

 

[Termhn]

The actual.

... ****?

 

[foxleader]

trust me when I say don't mess with wise elders of japan because I asked and that's what I got from them.

 

[Chernobyl]

... ****?

Something quite similar to that, yes.

trust me when I say don't mess with wise elders of japan because I asked and that's what I got from them.

Quite. Care to give us a response that isn't pseudo-cryptic nonsense? I think there's a point you're trying to make, but you're not doing a decent job.

 

[Cadet]

I believe he is attempting to express the apparent common misconception that Club=/=Community and that having an Organized Club Structure will destroy the sense of Community here. Although, now the source of this misconception seems to be that the very nature of having people vote for Regimental Commanders, and installing criteria on who can vote and who can run will be the “Death of Community” now. Where as before it was simply that having a club will kill community, at least now we've progressed to having elections in a club will kill community.

Also, he would appear to be insinuating that Art and his Staff are not providing “real” answers.

 

[Art Andrews]

The student said, "Master, I do not understand your wisdom."

The master said, "What wisdom? You asked a question and I answered."

Despite what, I can only assume, was intended as a jab, I kind of like this! :lol

 

[Art Andrews]

I believe he is attempting to express the apparent common misconception that Club=/=Community and that having an Organized Club Structure will destroy the sense of Community here. Although, now the source of this misconception seems to be that the very nature of having people vote for Regimental Commanders, and installing criteria on who can vote and who can run will be the “Death of Community” now. Where as before it was simply that having a club will kill community, at least now we've progressed to having elections in a club will kill community.

A lot of these things come down to world-views and personal perception. Some people are always looking for the sky to fall or are always looking to be a victim of something. Me? I don't see the world that way. For me, the cup, half-empty or half-full, always has water in it and I am thankful for that. I look at the community that I walked into, one that was quite fractured and quite scattered and I can't help but think that we can only get better. Does that mean there might need to be course corrections along the way? I am sure. Is it likely we will make missteps and need to correct them? Probably. Do I think that some are looking on the past with rose-colored glasses and to the future with nothing but fear and dread of the unknown? Yeah.. there is a little bit of that. But the thing is, no matter, what, we are going to find out together and because I believe in this community, I not only see the future as good, I see it as great and offering more possibilities than ever.

 

[foxleader]

Despite what, I can only assume, was intended as a jab, I kind of like this! :lol

no art it wasn't a jab in fact if I hadn't done some good editing I think most would have trying to axe me for it. its a odd place to find something like a gem in a waste land not like that board lands 2 job for scooter, but like that of a cost play event sure people don't see eye and sure some one gets thrown out because of what he or she said but it is still a fun place and that's how it was, like children playing in a sand box and we had others to play with but as we got older we went on to some else because we've changed and when we've grow old we could look back and see that how it was back then is still the way it is now, only thing became orderly and neat for the mess that their was.

 

[FANGS]

Just for everyone's info, Art and I are having a Skype meeting on Sunday to discuss some ideas borne from all of your input. We greatly appreciate the constructive suggestions.

I hope everyone enjoys their weekend!

 

[foxleader]

I think having a open mic night on tinychat would be better so we all can have some context to the long term goals.