cnc elite worthy?

[soul products]

ok first i just want to start off by saying that i am in no way trying to discredit or take away from the people who do this, i just want to bring it up because i dont think it is neccessarily.......fair?

ok so lately there have been a few threads that i have noticed: a reach colab. armor cnc'ing, an assault rifle, etc. that are all using cnc machines to biuld their pieces and then they are almost immeadiatly made "elite". to me it just doesnt seem 'fair'? (again maybe not the right word) that people are becoming part of the elite section for a machine that if it were not for human interaction, would get a perfect result everytime.

now i also understand how much work goes into making super super hd models because ive had to make a few myself but what ive noticed is that people arent asking for the threads to be elited until AFTER the milling (granted i know nothing about the set-up time and processes of a cnc). that leads me to believe that people arent 'eliting' until its made physical and that the actual file isnt as important to the viewers.

my point is that these threads seem to be 'elited' for the cnc machine and not the talent of the modelers. and like i said, im not trying to take anything away from most of these guys EX. the colab with skullcandy girl, bishop and a few other people that im sorry but i cant remember your usernames, the models these guys are pumping out are defintely elite worthy in my opinion but i can just about guarantee that if they didnt have a cnc machine and chose to make the files pep files, then they probably wouldnt become part of the 'elite'. again and i cant stress this enough, im not trying to take away credit were it is due.

i just wanted to see if im the only one who is thinking this way

 

[Boba Fett]

SKG is gonna kill you dude...

There was a big thing back a while ago about elite section being for completed projects only. That seems to have changed recently, but I would hope that it get's reverted back to only finished products.

as far as CNC'ing, there is a lot of pre CNC work ( especially the model) and post, involving a LOT of cleanup, further detailing, molding, etc. Plus the object is to make a high quality prop, whether you started with a piece of junk for a base or an insane model, the end result is what matters. An incompetent fool can mess up a CNC model, that would not get moved to elite. So yes, it IS elite worthy. my 2 cents...

 

[soul products]

hey no-one should be angry with this thread, ive made my feelings clear and besides SKG's modeling skills are far better than ALOT of professional work that i have seen and deserve their own elite section

yeah i know what you mean about the pre work. like i said, i no nothing of how to set up a cnc machine or the programing behind it. it may be on its own, enough to elite something lol. also like i said, im not slaming the modelers or the engineers, im simply wondering if others think the same about how the models arent getting the same reverence as when after they are milled

 

[Flyerfye]

I totally disagree with you Soul. If you'd ever worked with any of these milling machines, you'd realize that the production of anything from them to a finished stage is a skill in its own right. Not just "insert material, press button". The machine itself, it's requirements, and the materials it uses are costly, finnicky, and VERY easy to do wrong. The difference is, if you're operating a ten thousand dollar CNC machine, it's probably for your job (and thus you are, by requirement, already trained on how to work it), or you are already prepared to go far above and beyond for this hobby, and would produce great work if you only had a block of wood and a chisel.

Also, the elite section is not a contest. It is a way of putting the 405th's best stuff up front, and a way of honoring those who have gone above and beyond normal armor making and have put forth the personal effort to make something absolutely amazing. People have gotten into the Elite section for outstanding work with cardboard and glue. The inclusion of one project does NOT mean the exclusion of another.

As for 3D modeling vs. real-world building, there are entire sites dedicated to 3D modeling and all aspects of that production line. However, the 405th is not one of those sites. Functionally, the models are there to help build the props. If it doesn't end up being built into something cool, it's just not fitting with the focus of this site. Now, build an amazing model and turn it into an amazing prop, then we're talking about what the 405th is for.

 

[soul products]

again i have already said that i have no knowledge of to set up a cnc machine and its processes........no more need to tell me that its incredibly complicated. i completly understand this and agree that its a completly different talent. greatest respect i assure you

also i know that the elite section is not a contest and that it is a "put your best foot foward" section. ive already said that they deserve to be there.

i have to disagree with you on the model dedication part. the modelers are as much of a prop maker as the rest of us (they have their own section) only its electronic rather than physical,therefore diserve the elite treatment too. i just think people are asking for elite for the wrong reasons

 

[Boba Fett]

Not exactly getting what you're saying in the last post... are you saying that the actual 3d model maker deserves to be in elite for their model? Not the person milling it? (assuming they are different people).

Well think about it: working in the 3D world is one thing, there is always an "undo" button, it can be changed, and plus, it really doesn't "Exist." The person working the CNC machine is bringing that collection of polys to "life" so to speak, to give it a form and make an amazing prop from it. Now, not bashing that model maker that does not CNC their own models, still amazing work. But it is not a "prop" so to speak until it is an actual, tangible object. Not sure if I'm making sense right now... been a long day.

 

[soul products]

im not saying that the cnc'er isnt doing a very large amount of work, but if your saying that the modeler and the models shouldnt be the reason that they are in the elite then shouldnt the programer (who according to what has been said has the same to do with the final phyiscal result as the modeler) not recieve credit? again not taking credit just proposing a counter arguement. if electronic workers dont count then doesnt that mean that the machine is responsible for the final result?

 

[Tactonyx]

From my experience, I have used a CAD rigged to a CNC machine. Skill wise, it doesn't hold a candle to scratch building. It took me a semester to figure out on how to use it and make detailed models, it took me years to make detailed models by scratch with different mediums.
I understand your frustration that when a CNC show's up, a short while later it becomes Elited, here on the 405th, and other websites. I build some insanely detailed models, on the outside, and on the inside. I can garuntee that if my M6 pistol model were to be milled with steel and alluminum, it would be a fully functional pistol capable of firing modified, necked down .50 AE rounds (in other words, a working handgun)
Yeah, some people thought it was pretty awesome, but for the most part I got the impression of "meh." I guess if you've seen one pistol, you've seen them all.
Another one of my projects, the AR2 Pulse rifle, I figured it would garner a lot of attention, because it's a beastly gun. Nope, no one is interested, heck, over at the RPF, people are more interested in Pee Wee Herman's retarded bicycle than the AR2.
My guess into this phenomenon is that while I have a WIP that may take months to make, a CNC can do it in the fractioin of the time, making people bored of watching my WIP evolve and instantly gratified when watching a CNC project materialize in a matter of hours or days. This kind of behavior makes me less inclined to share some of my projects, not that I'm punishing anyone, it's just seems like nobody cares to look at them.
I've seen some great armor and props that's not in the Elite section, but some of them are better quality than what you would find in the Elite section.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Templar 320]

Dude, how does it hurt you if they get promoted to Elite Status? The equipment they use costs thousands of dollars and takes years of experience to master. Besides, do you think it is fair that those who use milling machines and create true works of art are somehow ineligible to join the Elite few simply because they have invested more time and money into production techniques? If you ask me, it sounds like someone is insanely jealous...

 

[Sgt Whoopass]

i can see where soul products is coming from, i watch these machines go round and round as they cut a little here, and spin a little there. these machines spit out a complete and exact representation of exactly what was on the screen a few hours ago, i see them pull their AR's out of these monsters of machines and then i sit back and my tiny little paper made prop and feel a little dejected, like no matter how quickly i pep and no matter how many times that F*****G dermel cuts into my fingers i wont have that perfect rendition in weeks, let alone hours it take those CNC machines to make that same exact prop.
but let me ask you this, would you deny someone the honor of joining the elite team if you knew they used a silhouette plotter to cut out their pepakura pieces? Would you make other people hand sand their bondo or use nail files instead of dremels? what it comes down to is Detective Spooner was right to be wary of the chair making robot but can we really blame the people who have access to these machines for using them? i believe that those with CNC machines have it much easier then those who hand sculpt their props, if computer screens and robots with drills become the norm for the prop making world ill jump right off VIKI myself cause there's no hope left for the rest of us. And for the record i do think that people wit CNC machines should be held to higher standards to joining the elite team, they probably dont have parents they need to dodge around to get their stuff from being thrown out. hate me if you must my my opinion is my own.

 

[SPRTNBD50]

Really, I didn't realize that . I only noticed SKG's and Bishop's Reach Colab using CNCs.

 

[Tactonyx]

Jealous? I hardly think so. It's tiring to see the craze of a CNC project, when there are a lot of other great scratch built projects out there that go unnoticed. Me, I have very little to gain here on this site, I show off my stuff because I figured the 405th would like them. I look for artistic value and personality, not a realised model programmed into a machine. Each to their own I suppose.

 

[Devious]

I agree with Tactonyx. CNC's are great, and I plan on getting one eventually, but its just not the same as taking a knife to a block of wood and seeing what comes out. CNCing is great if you want something good looking fast, but if you want an expression of skill and dedication, make it with your own hands, not with aluminum appendages.

 

[Boba Fett]

Counting down until the lock... this thing is still ALIVE? SKG must be taking a break from the forums... lol!

Well, does CNC'ing require less skill and dedication to master, than say Lee Keegan going at a block of wood? I'm not sure, since I am not a master of either technique. However, the CNC'er has to make each and every part in 3D, break it down, actually mill the foam or whatever, and then take the pieces, clean them up, and finally mold them. The time, money, and dedication it takes to come out with an end product via CNC is probably just the same as carving wood. Those aluminum appendages won't move themselves, and a computer is only capable of doing what you tell it to do. Computer might think faster and more precise than a human, but who programmed/built that CNC table and computer in the first place? As said before, you could make the argument that buying a craft-robo is "cheating" in the pepping stage. you didn't cut that out. True, but the craft-robo didn't assemble the pieces, clean them up, reinforce them, bondo them, or paint them. CNC is no different.

 

[Rick]

Every discipline has its pros and cons. Working with a CNC, wood working power tools, paper craft. They all take time and dedication. As I am new here, I’m not sure how a project is elected to Elite status. If its by vote by the entire form, and the builder is up front on how the work is being done, then I personally don’t see an issue. Of course this is my personnel opinion. I am working in card stock now, but have hands on experience with wood working, metals, and I am building my own CNC for armor and other projects.

 

[skylow]

Honestly i can understand the discoraging feeling that comes with watching a cnc project just come out of the machine half done when it takes us weeks to complete a scratch built model only for it to look half as good. On the other hand you have to realize the high technical proficiency the people running these machines have, it's another skill set in itself. It can take them days or weeks of rendering and preparing the machine to get to that point and the knowledge of modeling programs and milling machines is far beyond me. I think the common misconception and one that i had to overcome myself is that cnc machines are somehow cheating when in fact it is much more complicated and time consuming than in looks. Still i don't think it will necessarily take the place of hand made props by any means, look at Lee and his amazing woodwork. It is amazing to simply see something made out of nothing whether its by hand or with machines. So don't worry about forums, don't worry about other people somehow stealing your glory, just go out and make something amazing with the resources you have, grow and learn and you will be respected for it. I think that's what the 405th is all about.

 

[BenStreeper]

Well the Elite section is for the best of the best projects on the forum. So in my opinion a cnc project would fit in just as easy as any other. I do think that the projects should be finished though, as that used to be a qualification for "elite" status. I don't know what happened to that, but I do agree that it seems a lot of projects were moved to "Elite" status before completion lately

 

[soul products]

Counting down until the lock... this thing is still ALIVE? SKG must be taking a break from the forums... lol!

why wouldnt it still be alive, nobody is flaming anyone or saying "they are better and your bad" etc. we are just having a discussion. everyone is being pretty cool about this.

about what i said earlier, i dont think they shouldnt make elite PERIOD rather it should be harder for a cnc project to get in beacuse of the level of detail available in such a short time. and i only said what i said about the engineer vs the modeler and models being the reason for eliting because i was trying to counter the idea that the models cant 'elite' but a program can
also, money has no or shouldnt have any influence on whether or not something is elited. if cncers want to spend thousands then have at it but ive seen biulds that have made elite using regular materials that are available to everyone so price isnt a factor

btw id like to hear SKG's opinion on all of this. who knows, maybe she will agree, maybe she will think that im completely wrong.

 

[Brandon McClain]

I don't have an issue with Cnc work being in the elite section under certain conditions. The first being that it is a completed project. For as long as I can remember being in the forum the elite section has been reserved for completed projects, not just those that show promise an skill. If anything this would be te only serious beef I have with some of the things that are in the elite section. To get a good Cnc product is difficult in and of it's own right. First there is the 3G model. To build a precise, accurate and quality model not only takes countless hours, but immeasurable talent. These are not pep ready models. Next, someone must break down te model into machinable pieces and define to tool paths. This can be difficult because ofttimes you are limited by the abilities of the Cnc machine (number of axis'). And once te piece comes out of the mill, there is still the cleanup and detailing. If anything this is the step we relate to most. If you look at the legendary thread, I would argue that their first helmet the cqc alone would have qualified them for the elite section ONCE IT WAS FINISHED. There was cleanup and detailing and the apparently final product is a thing of beauty. So my issue is not necessarily with Cnc stuff being elited if it is completed and the final product is up to snuff. You can Cnc a fantastic model and screw it up in cleanup, and you can machine a mediocre file and end up with something flawless. All of the various steps require skills that take time to master, much more time than mastering pepakura and bondo. Just please, finish the part before it gets moved.

Ps, I will be the first to admit I am jealous of the g-code crew, I wish I still had access to one.

 

[Boba Fett]

Brandon speaks truly. 'Nuff said.