I Need A Cheaper Material To Make Molds From

[soul products]

ok ive made the hd shin for the mark IV suit from halo wars and as i was building i thought "man i dont want to do this twice" so i looked at some molding materials and thats wat i want to do



heres the problem, i have a fairly low budgit and i cant afford the gallon kit of silicon from smooth-on nor do i need that much

on the other hand the trial kit is within my range but im not sure if its enough

the shin stands 50cm straight up, is the trial enough for at least one pull or do i need more(if so how much more)

 

[Nintendude]

I don't know if the trail will work for that or not but since there is'nt that much detail with the shin you could probably use the silicone rubber from a hardware store that comes in a white tube and use enough to coat it.

 

[Roodkill]

well here's the downside:

Price.

If you pick up armor making, I know it's been said a thousand times, but it's very expensive. (Or at least can be.)

No matter how many times its said, there's always those who disagree simply because we don't want to hear that will break our banks.

I'm not saying due to low funds give up go home or buy from the discounted Target shelfs. But reconsider to what degree and materials you'll be willing to purchase.



If you have your armor, and don't want to break it in the process, AND capture the best detail: go with the silicone.

As far as a lower budget casting, you could try plaster.



However, I've found other ways of making armor that's more affordable and works to my fitting and likeing with just as good of results.

Take initiative and become creative.

 

[Drgnfyre4]

OK...I make costumes and molds for a living every day so I will give you this tried and true tip...if youre not planning on using your mold for production and just need to squeek two castings at the MOST out of it there are some cheap options. Option one...get some mold builder latex from a model train supply store. You can brush on this in many many thin layers, will take you several days. cover your shin parts in this, just brush on a layer, fairly thin as it will dry faster in thin layers. Once you have done about three beauty coats, you can add paper towels like one would fiberglass. Paint over the paper towels with the mold builder latex. get several layers on until you have a decent thickness of latex skin. you can do a shin part with two 12 dollar kits of mold builder latex. So you can mold this for roughly 25 bucks plus the cost of brushes, you can get burshes and paper towels from the .99 cent store.You will want a two part mother mold to prevent distortion and you can get plaster gauze bandages in rolls from art and hobby supply stores. Just cover in two halves with registration keys. Make sure to use vaseline to prevent the two halves from bonding together. Since youre not going to be making more than two castings this will hold up and provide you a temp "snap" mold. This technique is often used in shops when you have to make a hard master to refine and super clean and then put under good silicone.



Option two is to get 100% silicone caulking...these tubes are cheap at hardware stores. It must be 100% silicone caulking or it WONT WORK. BUy the dispensing gun for roughly ten bucks. You can carefully layer a thin coating of this like the above mentioned latex method. DO this in a well ventilated area as it smells a lot like powerful vinegar odor. It will take at least a day to set up. but you will get a thin glove mld like described above, and can then make a cheap plaster gauze mother mold around that, Remember this in NO MEANS takes the place of proper silicone molds, but it will do for making one or two copies and thats about it. I have seen a guy make a full sized Tauntaun head with the silicone caulking method and I have usd it for small belt buckle and detail parts and it DOES work and has been tried and true. Make sure to spread evenly and try to avoid air pockets. Hope this helps you.

 

[Drgnfyre4]

ALSO a rule of thumb for mold making that NEEDS to be learned around here...you do not mold hard to hard. Meaning if you have a HARD master...you DO NOT make a hard mold out of plaster or stone...THE PART WILL LOCK AND NEVER COME FREE!!!! Everytime I hear someone want to make a mold out of plaster and thier master isnt a SOFT material like clay or foamies I want to cringe!!!

 

[shmalofan]

^^^ use the edit post button in the lower right hand corner, to avoid double posting.



Drgnfyre4 is right. and smart to



But i need to tell you 2 things,



1st: i used the 2 pint kit like 4 days ago to mold my frag grenade, and i don't think it would be nearly enough to do the shin piece.



2nd: if you use the silicone caulking method, make sure to make it a thin layer, the reason i say that is



because i tried to use it to make a mold, and any places where it was more than 3/8" thick, didn't harden.

 

[Drgnfyre4]

And HE is correct about doing the silicone cauking thin, reason being is that it needs air to cause it to catalyze. If its gooped on thick the outside will "skin" and prevent the inside deeper silicone from getting air and outgassing and what not that is needed for it to cure. It is different from silicone that has a catalysing agent added and mixed.

 

[Propbuilder]

sorry Drgnfyre4 I totally disagree with the hard to hard comment, I too do this for a living (http://www.robot-costumes.com/) and all my parts are fiberglass made out of fiberglass molds,the trick is to make sure you have mold release, something to keep the parts from sticking together. Mold releases used are, pro mold releases (part-all paste wax aviable from west marine or fiberglass company, PVA wax) or the mid grade max(turtle wax), or if your cheap PAM has work for me in a pinch.In a stone mold you need to seal the stone with something I go with shalack but you can also use latex paint for quick one offs, then you wax the molds and go.



Make sure you clean the wax off after you pull a part or you will have a hell of a time getting the paint to stick.



I save a ton of money doing it this way, and I only use silicon when I have very detailed pieces or lot of undercuts( a huge issue when working with hard molds)



Remember when waxing a mold you need at least 6 layes of wax and you need to "wax on wax off" every layer.....

 

[Carpathia]

How long did it take you to pep the shin? If you're looking for a cheap way to mold it, and it will take several days to not only come up with a technique, but also several days to use this technique, you may have been able to save yourself a few days just by sucking it up and pepping the other shin. When I made my mkVI handplates, I thought I would be clever and make one pep then use it to cast two more, but like you, money was tight. I started to use the model train latex rubber molding, and spent well over a week coating it in the stuff. When I finally peeled it away and tried to cast it using a resin that takes 24+ hours to fully cure, I found that I could have just spent an extra day and pep the other handplate. Since the castings I made came out too flat, I went ahead and pepped it anyway. Now, I know that a handplate is tiny compared to a shin, especially one as detailed as the mkIV, but you may want to ask yourself if it's worth the extra time when it may not even come out the way you wish.

 

[Drgnfyre4]

sorry Drgnfyre4 I totally disagree with the hard to hard comment, I too do this for a living (http://www.robot-costumes.com/) and all my parts are fiberglass made out of fiberglass molds,the trick is to make sure you have mold release, something to keep the parts from sticking together. Mold releases used are, pro mold releases (part-all paste wax aviable from west marine or fiberglass company, PVA wax) or the mid grade max(turtle wax), or if your cheap PAM has work for me in a pinch.In a stone mold you need to seal the stone with something I go with shalack but you can also use latex paint for quick one offs, then you wax the molds and go.



Make sure you clean the wax off after you pull a part or you will have a hell of a time getting the paint to stick.



I save a ton of money doing it this way, and I only use silicon when I have very detailed pieces or lot of undercuts( a huge issue when working with hard molds)



Remember when waxing a mold you need at least 6 layes of wax and you need to "wax on wax off" every layer.....

I understand that it does work, but you also KNOW that its for pieces that dont have undercuts. The preponderance of newbies trying to learn mold making from a few online posts dont have the experience to know when to use different mold styles. In EVERY hollywood prop shop I have worked in for the last ten years and every film I have ever worked on the main shop rule is still what I stated. I continue to support that as a basic teaching rule because if not nine times out of ten you will have a newbie trying to make a hard stone mold of a complex compound shape like a hayabusa helmet by pouring it into a brick of plaster and then wonder why it wont come out. I took years of study under master mold makers to learn the mold making craft and just find it easier to start beginning molders off with that rule of thumb, once they have spent some time learning the how and why of what mold making works best then its ok to work outside the box so to speak. I am very familiar with your body of work and the methods to make the parts you do, but that is also a much higher level of craftsmanship than what most first time mold makers are able to do (meant as a total compliment to you by the way)

 

[soul products]

wow that was quick and by far the most in depth answers ive ever gotten in any of my topics . thanks



so 1. no hard masters and hard molds together, vice versa

2. i can use industrial silicon sealant?

3. if so put on thin

 

[shmalofan]

pretty much, just do as much research as you can.



The Smooth-on website is a great place to look, or go to youtube and search "smooth-on"



make sure to use a release agent (or the silicone will never come off).





Edit: i just noticed there are alot of people on the forum turning 41 today:



esenior (45), XABougspapstook (41), Queen (20), DABougspapstook (41), Khuntilla (23), Monk (20), Psychopanda (20), JasperFett (39), Butler (17), Violettaext (43), KEPrireeKic (41), VCPrireeKic (41), YTPrireeKic (41), Wrathchild (24), XWNoneordiniorn (41), SRNoneordiniorn (41), DRlotalaubove (41), AXlotalaubove (41), CXlotalaubove (41), ABIninehole (41), DOlotalaubove (41), DXlotalaubove (41), QYlotalaubove (41), IKlotalaubove (41), buysomasom (44), incagsnug (25), bribesyohdlCX (36), francedreamgirl (45), Nexus (20), bleek124 (31)



i counted 15.

 

[Propbuilder]

I understand that it does work, but you also KNOW that its for pieces that dont have undercuts. The preponderance of newbies trying to learn mold making from a few online posts dont have the experience to know when to use different mold styles. In EVERY hollywood prop shop I have worked in for the last ten years and every film I have ever worked on the main shop rule is still what I stated. I continue to support that as a basic teaching rule because if not nine times out of ten you will have a newbie trying to make a hard stone mold of a complex compound shape like a hayabusa helmet by pouring it into a brick of plaster and then wonder why it wont come out. I took years of study under master mold makers to learn the mold making craft and just find it easier to start beginning molders off with that rule of thumb, once they have spent some time learning the how and why of what mold making works best then its ok to work outside the box so to speak. I am very familiar with your body of work and the methods to make the parts you do, but that is also a much higher level of craftsmanship than what most first time mold makers are able to do (meant as a total compliment to you by the way)

First off thank you, and after seeing your work (which I would like to see more)I admire and respect your work, and you are correct, it is better to start off simply then to throw them in to the deep in sort to speak, I just came from the school of no limitation so that how I teach and I believe in in order to be good you need mistakes to understand the teaching and your right it does take years to master a tech. but you need to start somewhere and I'm guessing you and I didn't have a Discussion Board to help us start (I learned from my cousin who work in the Prop shop for the local theater at age 12,Now I teach mold making and fiberglass tech.s to high school students on the side)



I do like your Latex mold idea in the case of a cheap flexible mold thats what I would go with then back it with the plaster bandages or plaster if you think you more strength.

 

[Roodkill]

pretty much, just do as much research as you can.



The Smooth-on website is a great place to look, or go to youtube and search "smooth-on"



make sure to use a release agent (or the silicone will never come off).





Edit: i just noticed there are alot of people on the forum turning 41 today:



esenior (45), XABougspapstook (41), Queen (20), DABougspapstook (41), Khuntilla (23), Monk (20), Psychopanda (20), JasperFett (39), Butler (17), Violettaext (43), KEPrireeKic (41), VCPrireeKic (41), YTPrireeKic (41), Wrathchild (24), XWNoneordiniorn (41), SRNoneordiniorn (41), DRlotalaubove (41), AXlotalaubove (41), CXlotalaubove (41), ABIninehole (41), DOlotalaubove (41), DXlotalaubove (41), QYlotalaubove (41), IKlotalaubove (41), buysomasom (44), incagsnug (25), bribesyohdlCX (36), francedreamgirl (45), Nexus (20), bleek124 (31)



i counted 15.

Oomoo is a cheap 4-7 pulls for making molds as well, I forgot about that one from smooth on.

Also, did you notice that the users turning 41 end with an e,k,c, or n?



that spells "NECK" if you place them right. Which reminds me, I need to think about covering my neck with the neck seal!!!!

 

[GremlinLord]

For the absolute bare bones mold you can use Silicon Caulk, the 100% silicone stuff. Now there is a trick to doing this. Silicon caulk cures by absorbing water to replace the acid that is in its internal structure. If you use just water it wont work but acrylic paint will accelerate it. Now the exact amounts of paint to put in it is something you will need to experiment as I have never measured exactly as most of the molds I make with this method are 1 or 2 use (can get more but then I would use better molds).



As you guys will notice silicon caulk traps air so to counter act this we do this in two layers. First is pure silicon with no paint in a thin layer no thicker than 1/4" max and I mean max. You will need to work the bubbles out with your hands. Again there is a trick to this. Take some liquid hand soap or Dawn dish detergent and mix it with water. Use just enough soap to make the liquid feel slick. Keep your fingers covered in this liquid and work the bubbles out of the first layer of silicon then let is dry. Once the first layer is dried you can add the thicker layer of silicon with the acrylic paint, work fast cause it will cure very fast (20-60min).



Make sure to follow the general guidelines for mold making. That means no undercuts on the silicone mold or you will nee a multi piece mothermold. For a cheap 1 or 2 time use mothermold you can use plaster bandages but don't expect them to hold up to more than a handful of casts (2-4ish). I need to make a tut on this... one of these days...



Anyway pics:



First layer:





Layer 2(note forgot the general guidelines and had undercuts :unsure ):





Shell:





Now keep in mind these were just sculpting blanks I made and had to recast because I had too many thin layers to sculpt without chipping large sections so I didn't exactly take my time... But it "should work" for anything.

 

[Propbuilder]

Nicely done, I as far as I know that is the first good explanation of how to use that cheap cr@# ,I guess since your telling others it must have turn out ok for you....



thanks,

 

[guido666]

I know this sounds really nasty, and I sincerely don't intend it that way, so please hear me out...



Have you considered a job or some other way to make your budget bigger? You're really scraping bottom on this, trying to even find cheap alternatives to the commonly accepted cheaply reasonable ways to do things. You're talking about not being able to afford what really only amounts to a few hundred dollars. I know that to young people, even a few hundred dollars seems like quite a hurdle, but the consequence of trying to get decent results with extremely cheap methods is that you are going to spend TONS of extra time on it (read my post about the project triangle for more info). It's quite possible that you are going to spend so much extra time trying to be cheap, that you could just as easily work part time, or mow lawns, or sell your old bicycle or game console you don't play with anymore.



The reality is that (as I talked about in my project triangle post, linked in my signature), a decent suit of paper based armor is going to cost you a few to several hundred dollars, and molded armor is going to cost a couple times that (probably starting at $1000+). Even trying to use silicone caulk costs several dollars a tube, and you're going to go through dozens of tubes, which adds up to hundreds of dollars, trying to cover all the surface area of an entire set of armor.



Just a thought, I mean no offense. I'm just saying it may be a better use of your time to figure out a way to make a couple hundred extra bucks, than to find extreme ways to make it a couple hundred dollars cheaper to make. Nobody enjoys spending lots of money on molds, but the current materials and methods have been generally accepted as the most reasonable and cost effective ways to do it. If there were really great ways to do it cheaper, you'd see a lot of it being done.



EDIT: As for using silicone caulk, the first time I saw a good step-by-step of it was the guy that made the Taun Taun costume. Check out pages 1 and 2 linked from this post (plus just read it because it's cool): http://www.cockeyed.com/incredible/guest/tauntaun/tauntaun.shtml

 

[GremlinLord]

I do agree with Awesomeness about the price vs time piece. Molding with silicone caulk does take a a few hours to get the first layer bubble worked out and have it cured. The second layer goes fast and so does the plaster molds. But here is the trade off you need to keep coming back to this thing. Most other mold products are apply then wait till you ready to remove. Another thing molding and entire suit will cost$$$ even with this method however you can buy the materials 4 a a time to reduce the immediate impact of the cost unlike say buying a 2gal kit of rebound ($_$). I can say this the caulk method "can" make some really good molds but, it takes time and effort. I do a lot of my modeling both halo and non halo with plaster and sometimes I need a quick rough cast (read messed up...bad) so instead of using a high quality mold material I use caulk cause I don't care about the mold after the 1st or 2nd pull.



In this case cost is your driving factor you can decrease it by sacrificing the quality of the mold and the speed of the work (using Awesomeness's awesome post). Now when I say decreasing the quality I mean you will need to do some minor touchups after your pull your piece. However you will probably need to do touch ups anyway even with high quality mold material soo...



Here's a post from my Dome Visor thread that has some good links on how to do this type of molding.



http://405th.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21713&view=findpost&p=351727



Bah I'm being to lazy here are the links:

http://www.taxidermy.net/forum/index.php/topic,39157.0.html

 

[soul products]

gremlin117: thanks thats really helpful and ithink thats the way im going to go



awsomeness: i do understand where ur coming from but its not like i want a whole suit of molds all im doing is making a mold of the shin because altogether i dont like making pep model twice

some people that ive talked to about this have called me lazy but im not i just prefer sysmetry that way i dont have to worry about warping so much

as for the job, im working on it

 

[guido666]

gremlin117: thanks thats really helpful and ithink thats the way im going to go



awsomeness: i do understand where ur coming from but its not like i want a whole suit of molds all im doing is making a mold of the shin because altogether i dont like making pep model twice

some people that ive talked to about this have called me lazy but im not i just prefer sysmetry that way i dont have to worry about warping so much

as for the job, im working on it

My guess is that you will not save any effort, time, or money by trying to mold one shin to make two. The shin isn't a particularly complex piece to Pep, yet you are going to spend quite a while making a mold. Since money is in short supply for you, Pep is also much smarter than molding, since even for one shin you're probably talking $50-75 minimum to mold and cast. So it seems to me that you are going to spend more money and more time to make a molded shin, which is a bit counter-productive. Just my 2-cents.