I Quit

[Chernobyl]

Title pretty much says it all. I won't be posting new files, and I've already expressed my desire to have all of my existing assets removed from the Archive.

The forum move has been an example in absolute stupidity from the start, and while you, the standard member, may not be aware of what happens at Staff level, let me tell you that it's not been pretty. And I'm tired of it. I'm tired of being treated like a commodity by the people that own and manage this site, and I'm tired of being expected to simply sit by and endure it.

If I don't get banned for this, I'll still try to be an active community member - but I will no longer be posting files to the 405th and I won't be helping with file questions. Art Andrews has made it expressly clear that I won't be working as Archive manager in any capacity going forwards, and that my responsibilities have been passed to other people - therefore, I'm playing by his rules.

If I'm not wanted, then nor is my input.

It's been a fun seven or so years, people. Thanks for being what keeps me coming back here - but, unfortunately, the site management is what's pushing me out, here, and I'm tired of being treated as though I'm simply a commodity.

I'm out.

 

[Dirtdives2424]

So it is a technicality......Cherry is the owner but MPS retains irrevocable usage rights..............I'm just sadden by this whole situation. I do understand that for the good of the community at large, content shouldn't be denied but at what price? The loss of someone who has helped hundreds of members in numerous ways is painful. Especially when that separation is not amicable. I'm sorry for both parties involved and hope we all can move on to bigger and better things in the future.



Respectfully,
Sam

 

[kaween]

Sam put it down to writing so much better than I could, as I was wrestling with this for the last hour.

Honestly the importance of having a sense of closure for all involved while maintaining a mutual level of honor and respect very much will define how current and future content creators will look at the 405th, and it will reflect both on projects still in various stages of development and on projects still sitting on the drawing board and how they're handled by their owners.

Nitpicking about the rules might be common and good form in legal matters, It shouldn't be happening in a place were people come to have fun and celebrate the pleasure of just being creative and sharing that with others, no strings attached.

Or more simply said, it's a sad day. Very sad indeed.

Kris

 

[Art Andrews]

So it is a technicality......Cherry is the owner but MPS retains irrevocable usage rights..............I'm just sadden by this whole situation.

Sam, this is absolutely NOT a technicality. This is a crucial part of almost any service like this forum. Any responsible site that includes member contributions contain this clause. Some sites like Facebook actually DO claim a certain level of ownership to anything you upload. We do not take it that far because we feel that is overreaching and unnecessary as we only need usage rights.

This clause is not for the site, but for you. It protects your from being punished by someone who has become disenchanted with us.

Like you, I am absolutely saddened that we have come to this point.

I do understand that for the good of the community at large, content shouldn't be denied but at what price? The loss of someone who has helped hundreds of members in numerous ways is painful.

It is painful but don't misunderstand the order of events. The way you are describing them is the inverse of what they actually are. We lost someone valuable to the community and in their leaving they are asking to increase the loss to the community by trying to revoke the usage rights they gave the community.

 

[Chernobyl]

they are asking to increase the loss to the community by trying to revoke the usage rights they gave the community.

Since I mentioned that I'd be hosting my files privately and providing them regardless, there's no actual loss to the community. Therefore, your argument is null and void, and simply becomes a case of 'I want to control your files'. So let's cut this one down to size - you have no reasonable argument to bring here. Nobody loses anything but you - you're retaining my files purely for the traffic they bring.

Again. Take the files down. You've no reason to keep them up.

 

[Dracosfire83]

I know how to solve this to make everyone happy. I will redo all the game rips that Cherry posted that way her game ripped files will be deleted and replaced with an exact copy since hers where (ripped ,ported,hacked,stolen) whatever you want to call it as long as it's not hers. Best part is it's all ready done and posted to the old archive. All I need is Art's help to change the Authors name to 343 Industries. I can't use my name because that would be wrong and credit must be given to the real creator and owner of the files.

 

[Drakku]

This clause is not for the site, but for you. It protects your from being punished by someone who has become disenchanted with us.
...
We lost someone valuable to the community and in their leaving they are asking to increase the loss to the community by trying to revoke the usage rights they gave the community.

1) You are phrasing it as if it were a personal attack. Chernobyl is not "punishing" you by requesting to remove her content, she is requesting that you remove her content. Period. Whether you are reading further into it or not is not the issue at hand here.
2) "Trying to revoke the usage rights [she] gave the community" is her prerogative. She submitted the content, she is within her rights to request it be removed. As Dracosfire83 has pointed out above, replacing her content would require merely creating your own versions. And given that a large majority of that content was submitted before the migration to MPS, I feel that she is at least within her rights to have a say on the content that was acquired without her express permission. (Very few of us were given any warning the transition was happening until it had already happened.)

It isn't that she's trying to remove the access, she is trying to remove her name (and, therefore, an unspoken complacency with) the current affairs of the forum. I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know what's going on, but she isn't the only member that's been disenfranchised. And frankly, this disrespect, whether intentional or not, has been felt by other members around the site.

 

[Art Andrews]

1) You are phrasing it as if it were a personal attack. Chernobyl is not "punishing" you by requesting to remove her content, she is requesting that you remove her content. Period. Whether you are reading further into it or not is not the issue at hand here.

She isn't punishing me at all. She is punishing you, the members of the community.

2) "Trying to revoke the usage rights [she] gave the community" is her prerogative. She submitted the content, she is within her rights to request it be removed.

This is incorrect due to the phrase "irrevocably grant" in the Terms of Use.

And given that a large majority of that content was submitted before the migration to MPS, I feel that she is at least within her rights to have a say on the content that was acquired without her express permission. (Very few of us were given any warning the transition was happening until it had already happened.)

I understand why you feel that way, but all of these files were uploaded to the Downloads section after the transition and we did alert people to the new Community Guidelines/Terms of Service/Privacy Policy when we made the transition.

 

[rickrtickr]

This entire thread is drastically escalating out of control...

Art I understand your wanting to maintain the stability and supply of a unified archive however a blanket statement of the like listed in section is not binding nor enforceable, it is merely a way maintaining a proper forum an as such usually relates to user content such as images or the user created threads themselves... not a user created file or model (in this case chernobyl's files) which would still remain the sole property of the creator...

I have been with the 405th for several years and this is probably one of the biggest slaps to the face of a "highly valued member" that I have ever seen!
You claim her importance and then reject it at the same time! move on!

I can care less what your personal opinions or official stance on the matter is... and what I have read is that you only hold the temporary rights to distribute "with out having to pay" this does not give yo the rights to hold onto user created content.

remove the files yourself (I don't really care how) and regain the modicum of respect from me and many other longtime members or deny that request and loose all of the remaining respect we have...

I will redo all the game rips that Cherry posted that way her game ripped files will be deleted and replaced with an exact copy since hers where (ripped ,ported,hacked,stolen) whatever you want to call it as long as it's not hers. Best part is it's all ready done and posted to the old archive. All I need is Art's help to change the Authors name to 343 Industries.

As for you! This is even more blatantly disrespectful... having been a member for as long as you have I would have expected better from you.

yes often times the original models are pulled from a game rip of some kind... yet both Microsoft and 343 have never really brought the hammer down on someone using them for these purposes... (we are free advertising for them) The content is almost always maintained by a single user and in most cases will only end up as a pep file (when released to the general user population). which by its nature is not the original model at all!

so please get of your high horse and understand the situation has more to do with the files as it has to to with the rightful use of someone else's hard work and effort and having that effort being thrown into the dirt!

I am sorry but everyone needs to take a step back and really look at the situation. (looking at you Art)

 

[Art Andrews]

This entire thread is drastically escalating out of control...

Art I understand your wanting to maintain the stability and supply of a unified archive however a blanket statement of the like listed in section is not binding nor enforceable, it is merely a way maintaining a proper forum an as such usually relates to user content such as images or the user created threads themselves... not a user created file or model (in this case chernobyl's files) which would still remain the sole property of the creator...

I have been with the 405th for several years and this is probably one of the biggest slaps to the face of a "highly valued member" that I have ever seen!
You claim her importance and then reject it at the same time! move on!

I can care less what your personal opinions or official stance on the matter is... and what I have read is that you only hold the temporary rights to distribute "with out having to pay" this does not give yo the rights to hold onto user created content.

remove the files yourself (I don't really care how) and regain the modicum of respect from me and many other longtime members or deny that request and loose all of the remaining respect we have...

I am sorry to see that your remaining respect for me hinges on this matter. If it truly is, then I will have to bear the burden of moving forward without it.

 

[Drakku]

She isn't punishing me at all. She is punishing you, the members of the community.

But see, I don't feel punished. I don't think anyone is feeling punished. I think if you were to ask 100 people what they think of this situation, the vast majority are going to agree that you should respect her request. We are a community of prop makers and costumers, we help each other out and we give to each other, all in the name of bettering each other: but all of that is a privilege. Just because I have been given access to X files for X many years does not mean that I am entitled to them. I feel you, as a member of this artistic community, could understand this logic.

This is incorrect due to the phrase "irrevocably grant" in the Terms of Use.
...
I understand why you feel that way, but all of these files were uploaded to the Downloads section after the transition and we did alert people to the new Community Guidelines/Terms of Service/Privacy Policy when we made the transition.

Acknowledged. But for my arguments above, I do feel like it should at least be discussed before simply throwing legal rhetoric. In regards to the many years of service that Chernobyl has given to the community, it is very disappointing to see it be (from an outside perspective) so dismissive.

EDIT:

This entire thread is drastically escalating out of control...

Because so much of this has been felt by so many of us. This is barely scratching the surface.

 

[Art Andrews]

Acknowledged. But for my arguments above, I do feel like it should at least be discussed before simply throwing legal rhetoric. In regards to the many years of service that Chernobyl has given to the community, it is very disappointing to see it be (from an outside perspective) so dismissive.

As I have mentioned in previous posts, I understand why this feels dismissive on the surface because you are only seeing the final outcome. You have no reason to trust or believe me and as I have said before, I am not here to drag dirty laundry into the light nor attempt to garner sympathy. I can only tell you that this is not dismissive nor something we have taken lightly. It is something that has been agonized over a great deal, and sadly, this was the final outcome.

 

[rickrtickr]

I am sorry to see that your remaining respect for me hinges on this matter. If it truly is, then I will have to bear the burden of moving forward without it.

You have gone and proven my point Art. myself being a college graduate and having taken a few classes involving law and contracts a contract cannot remove the rights of (or the power over) a person's property (intellectual or otherwise) without relinquishing ALL OWNERSHIP of said property.

if she still maintains the OWNERSHIP you have no rights to control the property given their "wishes"

 

[Art Andrews]

You have gone and proven my point Art. myself being a college graduate and having taken a few classes involving law and contracts a contract cannot remove the rights of (or the power over) a person's property (intellectual or otherwise) without relinquishing ALL OWNERSHIP of said property.

if she still maintains the OWNERSHIP you have no rights to control the property given their "wishes"

Unfortunately, I am not willing to debate legal issues here.

 

[rickrtickr]

Unfortunately, I am not willing to debate legal issues here.

Yet you site a "legal" section of the terms and conditions?

You are dismissing your own argument Art...

 

[Art Andrews]

Yet you site a "legal" section of the terms and conditions?

You are dismissing your own argument Art...

I did cite the applicable section of our Terms of Use because it applied to the request being made. That is considerably different than engaging you regarding what you were taught in college and how it might apply to this situation. I appreciate that you believe you have an understanding of the situation that differs from what the Terms of Use state, but digressing into a legal debate with you about it will serve no purpose. We have and always will leave that kind of thing to our law firm.

 

[Drakku]

As I have mentioned in previous posts, I understand why this feels dismissive on the surface because you are only seeing the final outcome. You have no reason to trust or believe me and as I have said before, I am not here to drag dirty laundry into the light nor attempt to garner sympathy. I can only tell you that this is not dismissive nor something we have taken lightly. It is something that has been agonized over a great deal, and sadly, this was the final outcome.

And I know that we are only seeing the end result, and it isn't pretty. I know there is more to both sides. However, I still have to argue that this is all very frustrating to watch a highly respected member of our community be denied the decency of ending her affiliation on her own terms.

I must point out that at least four people have texted me in the last few hours telling me Chernobyl is quitting. We older members are confused, we are gathering here to see what is happening, and what we see is purely what has been posted in this topic. (Which like you mentioned, is not the whole story, I get it.) But what we are seeing comes off as disrespectful and unappreciative, something that I and other members have also felt as a trend throughout the past few years since the acquisition.

No, I have no reason to not trust you or believe you, but really, I have not had a reason to support you. A huge gap has been placed between management and members, and communication between has ground to a halt. What are we meant to do, when this is what we're met with? How are we supposed to feel the urge to continue to contribute to this community, when this is the reaction of upper management? It would be a great step forward in convincing us old timers that it's still worth it to be here if a modicum of compassion were shown instead of simply buckling down with legal terms. It emphasizes that disconnect.

 

[Art Andrews]

And I know that we are only seeing the end result, and it isn't pretty. I know there is more to both sides. However, I still have to argue that this is all very frustrating to watch a highly respected member of our community be denied the decency of ending her affiliation on her own terms.

I must point out that at least four people have texted me in the last few hours telling me Chernobyl is quitting. We older members are confused, we are gathering here to see what is happening, and what we see is purely what has been posted in this topic. (Which like you mentioned, is not the whole story, I get it.) But what we are seeing comes off as disrespectful and unappreciative, something that I and other members have also felt as a trend throughout the past few years since the acquisition.

I totally understand your frustration, confusion, and concern. I am sorry it has come to this and has come to your attention in this way.

No, I have no reason to not trust you or believe you, but really, I have not had a reason to support you. A huge gap has been placed between management and members, and communication between has ground to a halt. What are we meant to do, when this is what we're met with? How are we supposed to feel the urge to continue to contribute to this community, when this is the reaction of upper management? It would be a great step forward in convincing us old timers that it's still worth it to be here if a modicum of compassion were shown instead of simply buckling down with legal terms. It emphasizes that disconnect.

I appreciate your effort to extend an olive branch, but I don't believe giving in to what you want in this instance will change your overall view and will only encourage members in the future to take a ransomary (is that even a word? I am pretty sure it isn't) stance in which they offer their support if only I will do what they want THIS time. As someone said to me this morning; this too shall pass and when it does, if you are truly interested in seeing a stronger relationship forged between the staff and the membership, we would be glad to address it and work toward building it with you.

 

[Dracosfire83]

yes often times the original models are pulled from a game rip of some kind... yet both Microsoft and 343 have never really brought the hammer down on someone using them for these purposes...

Just because they don't send out cease and desist orders or threats of legal action like Nintendo would it still don't make it right. Also I don't know how much you know about ripping assets but as for the Halo franchise it is in direct violation of the "Game Content Usage Rules"

"You can't reverse engineer our games to access the assets or otherwise do things that the games don't normally permit in order to create your Items."

 

[Drakku]

I totally understand your frustration, confusion, and concern. I am sorry it has come to this and has come to your attention in this way.

And I appreciate your acknowledgement of such.

I appreciate your effort to extend an olive branch, but I don't believe giving in to what you want in this instance will change your overall view and will only encourage members in the future to take a ransomary (is that even a word? I am pretty sure it isn't) stance in which they offer their support if only I will do what they want THIS time. As someone said to me this morning; this too shall pass and when it does, if you are truly interested in seeing a stronger relationship forged between the staff and the membership, we would be glad to address it and work toward building it with you.

And again, my opinion has been formed solely on what I have seen or personally experienced on this forum. I personally do not feel that this is a ransom situation, but that this is the culmination of a much bigger problem on the whole. This is setting the example, and that is why we are so invested in seeing the outcome of this.

I'm struggling to find the ways to phrase it, but that's why I'm here, voicing my concerns: this situation is not just the face value of what we see, but representational of so many of our worries and fears as they have built over the years.

 

[Art Andrews]

This is setting the example, and that is why we are so invested in seeing the outcome of this.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, from our POV, this is not a developing situation. What you are seeing IS the outcome. Now... it could certainly devolve, but I would like to think it won't but that ball is not in my court. Anything from here forward will simply be us answering questions as I have been doing today.

I'm struggling to find the ways to phrase it, but that's why I'm here, voicing my concerns: this situation is not just the face value of what we see, but representational of so many of our worries and fears as they have built over the years.

You have mentioned this type of thing several times. I am not looking to open another can of worms at the moment, but perhaps this is something that could be addressed in greater detail once the dust has settled from the move and we have the Resource section repopulated. We are ALWAYS willing to address your concerns and worries.