I Quit

Discussion in 'Site Support' started by Chernobyl, Jan 31, 2017.

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  1. Drakku

    Drakku

    1) You are phrasing it as if it were a personal attack. Chernobyl is not "punishing" you by requesting to remove her content, she is requesting that you remove her content. Period. Whether you are reading further into it or not is not the issue at hand here.
    2) "Trying to revoke the usage rights [she] gave the community" is her prerogative. She submitted the content, she is within her rights to request it be removed. As Dracosfire83 has pointed out above, replacing her content would require merely creating your own versions. And given that a large majority of that content was submitted before the migration to MPS, I feel that she is at least within her rights to have a say on the content that was acquired without her express permission. (Very few of us were given any warning the transition was happening until it had already happened.)

    It isn't that she's trying to remove the access, she is trying to remove her name (and, therefore, an unspoken complacency with) the current affairs of the forum. I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know what's going on, but she isn't the only member that's been disenfranchised. And frankly, this disrespect, whether intentional or not, has been felt by other members around the site.
     
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  2. Art Andrews

    Art Andrews Community Owner

    She isn't punishing me at all. She is punishing you, the members of the community.

    This is incorrect due to the phrase "irrevocably grant" in the Terms of Use.

    I understand why you feel that way, but all of these files were uploaded to the Downloads section after the transition and we did alert people to the new Community Guidelines/Terms of Service/Privacy Policy when we made the transition.
     
  3. rickrtickr

    rickrtickr

    This entire thread is drastically escalating out of control...

    Art I understand your wanting to maintain the stability and supply of a unified archive however a blanket statement of the like listed in section is not binding nor enforceable, it is merely a way maintaining a proper forum an as such usually relates to user content such as images or the user created threads themselves... not a user created file or model (in this case chernobyl's files) which would still remain the sole property of the creator...

    I have been with the 405th for several years and this is probably one of the biggest slaps to the face of a "highly valued member" that I have ever seen!
    You claim her importance and then reject it at the same time! move on!

    I can care less what your personal opinions or official stance on the matter is... and what I have read is that you only hold the temporary rights to distribute "with out having to pay" this does not give yo the rights to hold onto user created content.

    remove the files yourself (I don't really care how) and regain the modicum of respect from me and many other longtime members or deny that request and loose all of the remaining respect we have...


    As for you! This is even more blatantly disrespectful... having been a member for as long as you have I would have expected better from you.

    yes often times the original models are pulled from a game rip of some kind... yet both Microsoft and 343 have never really brought the hammer down on someone using them for these purposes... (we are free advertising for them) The content is almost always maintained by a single user and in most cases will only end up as a pep file (when released to the general user population). which by its nature is not the original model at all!

    so please get of your high horse and understand the situation has more to do with the files as it has to to with the rightful use of someone else's hard work and effort and having that effort being thrown into the dirt!

    I am sorry but everyone needs to take a step back and really look at the situation. (looking at you Art)
     
  4. Art Andrews

    Art Andrews Community Owner

    I am sorry to see that your remaining respect for me hinges on this matter. If it truly is, then I will have to bear the burden of moving forward without it.
     
  5. Drakku

    Drakku

    But see, I don't feel punished. I don't think anyone is feeling punished. I think if you were to ask 100 people what they think of this situation, the vast majority are going to agree that you should respect her request. We are a community of prop makers and costumers, we help each other out and we give to each other, all in the name of bettering each other: but all of that is a privilege. Just because I have been given access to X files for X many years does not mean that I am entitled to them. I feel you, as a member of this artistic community, could understand this logic.

    Acknowledged. But for my arguments above, I do feel like it should at least be discussed before simply throwing legal rhetoric. In regards to the many years of service that Chernobyl has given to the community, it is very disappointing to see it be (from an outside perspective) so dismissive.

    EDIT:
    Because so much of this has been felt by so many of us. This is barely scratching the surface.
     
  6. Art Andrews

    Art Andrews Community Owner

    As I have mentioned in previous posts, I understand why this feels dismissive on the surface because you are only seeing the final outcome. You have no reason to trust or believe me and as I have said before, I am not here to drag dirty laundry into the light nor attempt to garner sympathy. I can only tell you that this is not dismissive nor something we have taken lightly. It is something that has been agonized over a great deal, and sadly, this was the final outcome.
     
  7. rickrtickr

    rickrtickr

    You have gone and proven my point Art. myself being a college graduate and having taken a few classes involving law and contracts a contract cannot remove the rights of (or the power over) a person's property (intellectual or otherwise) without relinquishing ALL OWNERSHIP of said property.

    if she still maintains the OWNERSHIP you have no rights to control the property given their "wishes"
     
  8. Art Andrews

    Art Andrews Community Owner

    Unfortunately, I am not willing to debate legal issues here.
     
  9. rickrtickr

    rickrtickr

    Yet you site a "legal" section of the terms and conditions?

    You are dismissing your own argument Art...
     
  10. Art Andrews

    Art Andrews Community Owner

    I did cite the applicable section of our Terms of Use because it applied to the request being made. That is considerably different than engaging you regarding what you were taught in college and how it might apply to this situation. I appreciate that you believe you have an understanding of the situation that differs from what the Terms of Use state, but digressing into a legal debate with you about it will serve no purpose. We have and always will leave that kind of thing to our law firm.
     
  11. Drakku

    Drakku

    And I know that we are only seeing the end result, and it isn't pretty. I know there is more to both sides. However, I still have to argue that this is all very frustrating to watch a highly respected member of our community be denied the decency of ending her affiliation on her own terms.

    I must point out that at least four people have texted me in the last few hours telling me Chernobyl is quitting. We older members are confused, we are gathering here to see what is happening, and what we see is purely what has been posted in this topic. (Which like you mentioned, is not the whole story, I get it.) But what we are seeing comes off as disrespectful and unappreciative, something that I and other members have also felt as a trend throughout the past few years since the acquisition.

    No, I have no reason to not trust you or believe you, but really, I have not had a reason to support you. A huge gap has been placed between management and members, and communication between has ground to a halt. What are we meant to do, when this is what we're met with? How are we supposed to feel the urge to continue to contribute to this community, when this is the reaction of upper management? It would be a great step forward in convincing us old timers that it's still worth it to be here if a modicum of compassion were shown instead of simply buckling down with legal terms. It emphasizes that disconnect.
     
  12. Art Andrews

    Art Andrews Community Owner

    I totally understand your frustration, confusion, and concern. I am sorry it has come to this and has come to your attention in this way.

    I appreciate your effort to extend an olive branch, but I don't believe giving in to what you want in this instance will change your overall view and will only encourage members in the future to take a ransomary (is that even a word? I am pretty sure it isn't) stance in which they offer their support if only I will do what they want THIS time. As someone said to me this morning; this too shall pass and when it does, if you are truly interested in seeing a stronger relationship forged between the staff and the membership, we would be glad to address it and work toward building it with you.
     
  13. Dracosfire83

    Dracosfire83

    Just because they don't send out cease and desist orders or threats of legal action like Nintendo would it still don't make it right. Also I don't know how much you know about ripping assets but as for the Halo franchise it is in direct violation of the "Game Content Usage Rules"

    "You can't reverse engineer our games to access the assets or otherwise do things that the games don't normally permit in order to create your Items."
     
  14. Drakku

    Drakku

    And I appreciate your acknowledgement of such.

    And again, my opinion has been formed solely on what I have seen or personally experienced on this forum. I personally do not feel that this is a ransom situation, but that this is the culmination of a much bigger problem on the whole. This is setting the example, and that is why we are so invested in seeing the outcome of this.

    I'm struggling to find the ways to phrase it, but that's why I'm here, voicing my concerns: this situation is not just the face value of what we see, but representational of so many of our worries and fears as they have built over the years.
     
  15. Art Andrews

    Art Andrews Community Owner

    Just so there is no misunderstanding, from our POV, this is not a developing situation. What you are seeing IS the outcome. Now... it could certainly devolve, but I would like to think it won't but that ball is not in my court. Anything from here forward will simply be us answering questions as I have been doing today.

    You have mentioned this type of thing several times. I am not looking to open another can of worms at the moment, but perhaps this is something that could be addressed in greater detail once the dust has settled from the move and we have the Resource section repopulated. We are ALWAYS willing to address your concerns and worries.
     
  16. Drakku

    Drakku

    Then I certainly hope you all will reconsider, or at least keep this discontent in mind for future grievances, given the amount of community concern involved.

    Yes, I'm trying not to derail the thread and only mentioning it as support to the arguments I'm bringing up in regards to this issue. But there is definitely a future conversation that needs to be had.

    I have, however, said my peace in regards to this topic.
     
    Dirtdives and Art Andrews like this.
  17. StayFrosty

    StayFrosty

    Damn, I'm really sad to see you go Cherry. I've got to say that when I saw that you'd been removed as a staff member, my first reaction was sort of, "What the hell do they think they're doing" Obviously I haven't been a member here as long as you, but I have noticed that some weird stuff has been going on here these last few months. I really view you as a staple of the Community, and I find it a little astounding that you're being driven out. This seems like a case of management being douchebags. We're gonna miss you.
     
    Spartan119 likes this.
  18. Dracosfire83

    Dracosfire83

    I wonder how many would say the same about Adolf back in 1945. If Art wanted to be a D-bag he could just pull the plug on the entire site. It's not like it was worth anything for over a year before he took over and you where lucky to get 12 new posts a month. Some might miss her but I personally felt a sigh of relief. It will be nice to be able to help people again without fear of setting off a cherry-bomb anytime you post something she didn't like.
     
  19. PerniciousDuke

    PerniciousDuke

    Chernobyl has raised the standards in this community. In this thread, you have already lowered them substantially. You need to stop inciting people.
     
  20. StayFrosty

    StayFrosty

    Agreed, Duke. Dracosfire, Chernobyl has dedicated a lot of time and resources to bettering this community. Like her or not, I hope that you can respect that.
     
    WandererTJ likes this.
  21. Chernobyl

    Chernobyl

    Aside from the fact that most of the modelling scene knows who created these file packs, what you're talking about is plagiarism - taking something that doesn't belong to you, without credit to the original owner, and taking said credit for yourself.

    If you want to go ahead and download the resources you'd need to extract and convert the files, and then spend the time arranging, renaming, sorting and uploading them, then more power to you. I have absolutely no problem with you doing so. But I'll warn you - I've processed well over 3,000 files since I began the project... a good few years ago now. It's taken me this long to get everything pulled, sorted, and in an appreciable state to be uploaded and used by the community. It's a long, hard, arduous, and often utterly thankless task, and there's very little wonder that nobody else stepped up to do it.

    Frankly, there's nobody else on the 405th with the skills or knowledge that I have to contribute these files. So, please - stop making yourself look like an idiot.

    See, here's where you're wrong, Art. I've said multiple times now that I'm happy to provide my resources as linked to an off-site hosting service. This seems to be a fact you've glossed over despite my stressing it, so hopefully this time it'll sink in - I have no intentions of starving the community of my resources. I'm not punishing the community at all, I'll keep providing content. I only ask that my content not be hosted here, on the 405th.

    Since your argument stands upon the grounds that I'm punishing the community, and that I've proven I'm willing to keep providing for the community, I don't think you have very much ground to stand on. If I'm punishing anybody here, it's you - I know exactly what those files mean to you in terms of site traffic, I know exactly how damaging pulling those files will be to your figures, and I'm fairly certain that your protestations of 'protecting the community' are a smokescreen for your own agenda. You're harming the rights and wishes of creators such as myself under the guise of protecting the community, when it's fairly clear that the only person to lose from me issuing my takedown request is you. My files go away, people follow, and you're left with an empty forum, right? That's your concern here. Money. Not the people, the money. Hell, this problem began with money, and your desire to push work to the Archive that I disagreed with, with the aim of increasing traffic and therefore lining your pockets with ad revenue.

    Regardless of that: hypothetical. If somebody were to post somebody else's work without their permission, and they came to you with a request to remove said content, would you honour it? Or would you cling to your clauses and say 'no, once it's here it's owned by the 405th and it's staying up'? Or is this clause simply to protect you from having to remove bulk uploads such as mine? Will you be respecting the wishes of content creators who wish to assign themselves to a DNP (Do Not Post) list?

    Frankly, I think I know what the answer is here. And again, if your only argument is 'protect the community', see above. I love this community. I have worked my ass off for this community long before you even knew what the 405th was. I will continue to work my ass off for this community - however, it's become clear to me that the 405th is not a labour of love for you. It's a business, you run and treat it as such, and you're somehow surprised that your staff are leaving you. You came in here expecting to be able to fit us into the 501st/Predatorium/DH mould and it's not worked. Your staff are voting with their feet, and it's quite likely that the community will follow.

    So, I'll say it one last time: take the files down. If you can't show that you respect and honour the wishes of the people who create for this community, then you're going to end up seeing a lot of people move away from hosting their files here. You have no respect for intellectual property, only profits, and frankly:

    You utterly disgust me.
     
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  22. FANGS

    FANGS Commanding Officer Division Staff

    I'm issuing a warning at this time. This is a discussion that people are passionate about, however passion about a topic need not include name calling nor does it exclude people from following forum rules. Name calling is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
     
  23. Dracosfire83

    Dracosfire83

    You kind of left this part out of my quote "All I need is Art's help to change the Authors name to 343 Industries. I can't use my name because that would be wrong and credit must be given to the real creator and owner of the files."

    As for processing over 3,000 I can believe that part but it would be considerably better if you unfolded the files instead of just releasing all raw files otherwise it's noting special I started asset extraction in 2011 but have accumulated over 10 terabytes of game models from various games it's actually quite easy to do it's just time consuming as you should know since the file naming rarely does the files any justice.

    Now for the skills/knowledge that just your ego flaring up. Plenty of competent people have tried to release files or wanted to learn how but you where always quick to shut them down lock threads and intimidate them to leave (I still have the PM's) even when no rules where broken. Then within a few days you would usually post about your latest progress using reversed engineered software to export "your" Halo models.
     
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  24. Art Andrews

    Art Andrews Community Owner

    I am very sorry to report that Chernobyl has forced our hand in banning her from this community. While she is no longer a part of us, we still appreciate her past contributions and hope that she finds what she is looking for elsewhere.

    Additionally, as she has now been banned, there is no need in continuing this thread so I am closing it.
     
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