Pepakura Ethics (Or Is It Ok To Make Moulds/bucks From Pep Files?)

[stealth]

Hey guys, I rarely post in here but this issue has really pushed a button with me.



please read from the RPF.com



http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=86135



pepakura ethics (or is it ok to make moulds/bucks from pep files?)



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I am really curious to hear peoples opinion on this. My stance is that yes it is ok and Ill give an example. Anyone who has done any Ghostbuster propping has heard the term "Stefan's plans". Most people agree that they are the best plans for building a proton pack, and almost everyone who sells pack shells uses his plans for their build. He put in hours and hours of work to make the best possible refrences for all of us to use, and then put it up on the internet for free. Now just because you have access to these plans does not mean that you are capable of making great bucks or molds. It takes tons of skill and time to translate stefan's plans into the real world and no two "stefan accurate" packs are the same. I see pep files the same way. They are a great start and the people who made them are heroes of our community, but it still takes time and skill, sweat and tears of the builder to make them and finish out the details, and if they want to make and sell copies of their work(as long as they acknowldge the person(s) who made the pep file) that is their right. How do the rest of you feel?





after reading this thread I made a simple comment which I'm sure a lot of us agree with

"Its ok unless the modeller says otherwise."



It's been the code of honor.



Some people were stating that it is not right.

Some even "backpedalled" on thier stance when confronted the subject so harshly.



what are your thoughts on this. We as a community who makes,sells, finished parts from pepped 3d models are really being hit an unfair blow in my opinion by a bunch of ignorant people



We respect the great work the modelers put into their creation and respect their wishes whether to mold or not mold something

 

[Belakor]

I think you've got the wrong link in there, should be this:

http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=86135

or this if you're after TMP's post in particular

http://www.therpf.com/showpost.php?p=1221016&postcount=9

Also you need an account to view that thread, just in case non-members can't work out why they can't see it.

Strike that, it was asking for an account because the link was trying to post something. Those links above shouldn't do that

 

[Sigma LS]

This is the original home of pep armor and as such we've developed our own way of doing things. Pep has become refined by our fantastic modelers and the process streamlined. In short we have become REALLY GOOD at peping, to the point where even the old school pros are seeing it as a viable method of prop making.



Some are only seeing it at the current state where it seems like a low skill threat to all the hard work they do. Most understand that it is only an armature for classic work though.



Anyone who has ever done pep knows how much work is required beyond the basic model for a good final prop.



EDIT: Read that thread on the RPF and all TMP is getting at is that custom pieces and imagery should be respected as belonging to the artist. Example: You make a custom unique saber. People should not make and distribute pep models of said saber without your explicit consent because it would be a form of indirect recasting.

 

[stealth]

I think you've got the wrong link in there, should be this:

http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=86135

or this if you're after TMP's post in particular

http://www.therpf.com/showpost.php?p=1221016&postcount=9

Also you need an account to view that thread, just in case non-members can't work out why they can't see it.

Strike that, it was asking for an account because the link was trying to post something. Those links above shouldn't do that

woops thanks belakor

EDIT: Read that thread on the RPF and all TMP is getting at is that custom pieces and imagery should be respected as belonging to the artist. Example: You make a custom unique saber. People should not make and distribute pep models of said saber without your explicit consent because it would be a form of indirect recasting.

did you read this part?



"In regards of Pepakura.. The instant the peices is moulded to make several casts it becomes a "recast" peice in my opinion"



its a flat out stance saying its recasting.

 

[shmalofan]

do unto others as you would have them do unto you.



if i made a file and posted it, i would be ok with people using it to make an original prop and copies and post them for sale.

(as long as i got credit for the blueprints)



I think it's ok unless the maker says otherwise.



but this the internet, unfortunately there are people out there that will do really mean/unethical things.

(like the person that copied thorssoli's helmet)



just my 2 cents.



-shmalofan-

 

[Sigma LS]

woops thanks belakor







did you read this part?



"In regards of Pepakura.. The instant the peices is moulded to make several casts it becomes a "recast" peice in my opinion"



its a flat out stance saying its recasting.

That is recasting in the strictest sense, not what you are thinking of. There's another thread on the RPF where the difference is made clear. There are some folks there that would call casting from the original production mold from a movie "recasting", because you are casting another run from the original molds.



It's an issue of semantics. Here he is saying that the 3D model was the original master so any construction of the model is a "cast" instead of a master and any molding is a "recast".



This wording is used so he can establish the model ownership to the original modelmaker regardless of the model being constructed.



Give me a minute and I can find the thread.



EDIT: This is the issue he's getting at.



Quote:

One thing that I've been curious about is if someone gets a casting and modifies it, does that make it an original sculpt? [/b]

Another slippery slope. What constitutes a "modification"? If proprietary "rights" are to be granted for a modified work, then presumably the modifications must meet some minimum standard in order to qualify. I couldn't just smooth a bead of putty onto someone else's helmet cast and then declare, "This is now my original work!"



Not really the thread I was looking for but has a lot of the same stuff.



http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=11604





EDIT numero dos: To be clear though while the technical details of what is semantically a "recast" is debatable a Recaster is always a despicable person who recasts other people's work without permission or any work of their own just to make a quick buck.

 

[stealth]

my problem is hes generalizing



when the majority of people model from scratch. Not 3D scans of an actual helmet/prop.

 

[Dancin Fool]

my problem is hes generalizing



when the majority of people model from scratch. Not 3D scans of an actual helmet/prop.

Yeah, this is what really bothered me the most. I don't think TMP has any clue what goes into creating a 3D model. I tried to explain it a bit more clearly in my Pep thread on the SIWDAT forum as we had a similar discussion. It seems as though he can't get past thinking that to make a 3D model all you have to do is insert x number of photos into an application and it spits out a 3D model. Creating a model in max or maya is no different then creating a model out of clay, they're just 2 different mediums.

 

[Sigma LS]

my problem is hes generalizing



when the majority of people model from scratch. Not 3D scans of an actual helmet/prop.

He definitely seems ignorant of the modeling process (great model done in a day, I don't think so), but I thought the issue of modeler and image IP/semi-IP was the discussion.

 

[Drgnfyre4]

I think there is a huge fear of Pep because it does level the playing field a bit and makes things more accesable to those who havent invested years in training as sculptors, and fabricators. Hence why many look down on it. I personaly choose to embrace it as a tool. I wont lie, but you give ten guys the same pep fies and I will wager you will get ten different looking finished pieces. To me, a pep file is no different than a photo resource...we can all start with a photo but its all in how you finish it off. This is evidenced by the EXTREMELY talented individuals that are doing amazing Iron Man helmets....even with the same files, same photo ref,they are still tweaking and adjusting in order to achieve thier desired goals...how is that recasting? How is that different from looking at the same movie stills and pushing clay till it looks right. Different side of the same coin, at some point the end results SHOULD look like they are from the same mold...if you are trying to get Iron Mans look perfect than eventually the measurements on ten different MASTER fabricators should start slowly becoming more and more identical.

Before there was pep we all had to rely on just clay, and styrene and MDF...but now there is a new tool. And thats all that pep is...a tool to start your master. Anyone who would assume that using a straight pep file hardened without any significant rework and finishing technique is going to make one $#!Tty vac buc. If the pep file designers were afraid of thier work being used they wouldnt have posted them on boards that OBVIOUSLY have hundreds of guys wanting to make these pieces.

So do I think pep is recasting if used to make reproducable pieces? NO. I firmly believe that you need to look at the source of the detractors...people who dont want it easier for more guys to compete for the already hard to get dollar in the prop replica world.Examine WHO is trying to stir the pot and ask yourself WHY. I make a living making replica props myself. Its how I put food on the table, Ive been recast countless times...I could cry about it and try to keep people from learning this craft, but it wont work, I try to work harder, faster and constantly take my personal level of craftmanship up higher and higher.

Bottom line ANY prop replica sold without the liscence issued by the studio which retains rights to "likenessess" is ILLEGAL. Make a prop for sale and you risk a lawsuit...I have the papers served from several studios to prove it concerning my replicas...the more "public" this "hobby" becomes, the worse it gets for us. People should just be quiet, play nicely, and enjoy the ride while they can. The more big business prop collecting becomes the scarcer this will be for everyone.

 

[stealth]

well said DrgnFyre

Yeah, this is what really bothered me the most. I don't think TMP has any clue what goes into creating a 3D model. I tried to explain it a bit more clearly in my Pep thread on the SIWDAT forum as we had a similar discussion. It seems as though he can't get past thinking that to make a 3D model all you have to do is insert x number of photos into an application and it spits out a 3D model. Creating a model in max or maya is no different then creating a model out of clay, they're just 2 different mediums.

Yeah I really think he has no idea of the whole process. Which is why I cry ignorance and and suggest he do some REAL research before making such statements.

 

[billybong87]

Bunch of old dogs having a sad about new tricks, they should book themselves into the nearest nursing home.

 

[Sigma LS]

I went and posted in that thread, probably shouldn't have though. I was a little pissed when I did.



Basically his entire argument was a question. "Am I protected from having my stuff copied digitally?"



Answer. "If it's your totally original work (not based on stuff you don't own) then yes."



If not then why would they use your stuff instead of original reference material?





I think the fear may also be: What if pep can get it done quicker than old school tricks with a similar level of quality? (why the misunderstanding about modeling is a big deal). Nothing sucks more than working on a huge expensive project and somebody beating you by mile because they got a quicker process with a final product as good as yours.

 

[ClintonH]

Quote for truth. :cool And yeah TMP is pissed cause "his" money may end up somewhere else and not in his pocket "where it belongs" :rolleyes

I think there is a huge fear of Pep because it does level the playing field a bit and makes things more accesable to those who havent invested years in training as sculptors, and fabricators. Hence why many look down on it. I personaly choose to embrace it as a tool. I wont lie, but you give ten guys the same pep fies and I will wager you will get ten different looking finished pieces. To me, a pep file is no different than a photo resource...we can all start with a photo but its all in how you finish it off. This is evidenced by the EXTREMELY talented individuals that are doing amazing Iron Man helmets....even with the same files, same photo ref,they are still tweaking and adjusting in order to achieve thier desired goals...how is that recasting? How is that different from looking at the same movie stills and pushing clay till it looks right. Different side of the same coin, at some point the end results SHOULD look like they are from the same mold...if you are trying to get Iron Mans look perfect than eventually the measurements on ten different MASTER fabricators should start slowly becoming more and more identical.

Before there was pep we all had to rely on just clay, and styrene and MDF...but now there is a new tool. And thats all that pep is...a tool to start your master. Anyone who would assume that using a straight pep file hardened without any significant rework and finishing technique is going to make one $#!Tty vac buc. If the pep file designers were afraid of thier work being used they wouldnt have posted them on boards that OBVIOUSLY have hundreds of guys wanting to make these pieces.

So do I think pep is recasting if used to make reproducable pieces? NO. I firmly believe that you need to look at the source of the detractors...people who dont want it easier for more guys to compete for the already hard to get dollar in the prop replica world.Examine WHO is trying to stir the pot and ask yourself WHY. I make a living making replica props myself. Its how I put food on the table, Ive been recast countless times...I could cry about it and try to keep people from learning this craft, but it wont work, I try to work harder, faster and constantly take my personal level of craftmanship up higher and higher.

Bottom line ANY prop replica sold without the liscence issued by the studio which retains rights to "likenessess" is ILLEGAL. Make a prop for sale and you risk a lawsuit...I have the papers served from several studios to prove it concerning my replicas...the more "public" this "hobby" becomes, the worse it gets for us. People should just be quiet, play nicely, and enjoy the ride while they can. The more big business prop collecting becomes the scarcer this will be for everyone.

 

[kupokitty]

To me, Pepakura items are nothing more than simple skeletons that hold the true piece of art together. I see nothing wrong with molding things that were once pepped.



My friend's dad, who is a professional sculptor, makes wire skeletons that reduce the amount of clay/other material he has to use. That's all that Pepakura does.

 

[Aaron]

Pepakura is a base for making a fantastic work of art, a very fine prop. That's it, just a base for us to build off of and do whatever we want with it once we can call it ours.

 

[AceHigh]

To me, Pepakura items are nothing more than simple skeletons that hold the true piece of art together.

Simple? So the efforts of modellers spending dozens of hours perfecting pep files are useless, seeing how simple pepakura is? It's rather funny how many people out there seem completely helpless without pepakura given that fact. I'm glad I don't share my files any more though, seeing how simple they are.







I don't particularly enjoy how this thread seems to be more about bashing TMP's views than actually discussing pepakura ethics like the topic asks. While I don't agree with TMP's views, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and openly going after him like this isn't cool in my book. Especially if he isn't a member and can defend himself.



My views on pepakura ethics when it comes to selling casts are similar to what STEALTH states in the first post. If the pepakura file is released for free, you can do whatever you want with it. If the modeller asks you not to sell copies, then you shouldn't.

 

[Drgnfyre4]

ive recently sat and read the newer posts added both here, and on the other board...All of this sounds like the typical growing pains of a new technology. Easily over 13 years or so ago my old costuming group did up our vac bucs for stormtrooper armor...we sat with video tapes paused and studied every angle of the armor. Found every available photo and tried to find measurement constants in background set pieces in order to scale parts and extrapolate size and angles and shapes. Months of work between five guys to sculpt, mold, clean up vac bucs...redo parts and pieces...

I am sure that people before us were compaining it wasnt fair because we had video tapes of the movies to use to aide us, when "back in the day" all you had was your memory of seeing the movie, and some trading cards.

Pep is just another new tool to make life easier. 3d modellers put out the files for use by others, if they dont want other people using thier file, then they dont need to release it. The pep community for the most part seems to feel good about making files for others to use.Many simply ask for credit for thier efforts.

Me personaly I run a busness making and selling props and costume..like it or hate it, I feed my family this way. I have done it for over ten years. Initialy I was peeved that Pep made it so more people could try to make props, and it might make a person think twice about paying me before trying to make it themselves...know what? Yeah, anyone can try to make a pep file into a wearable prop/costume...most either cant finish it and lose interest, or most look prety shoddy and homemade...before you roast me over a fire for saying that, let me acknowledge that many people are more than happy with Halloween grade efforts and that is FINE. Those people werent my customers in the first place. This is said to adress TMPs apparent bias against Pep spreading and taking over the world. The people who were going to drop thousands on his illegaly made unliscenced suit profiting off of Marvel comics character, arent people who are going to want to learn pepakura and make thier own version of his armor.Those who are going to make Iron Man armor for resale that will be worth the investment, can make it with or without pep.

Myself, I can look at reference photos and sculpt ANYTHING...its what I was trained to do. I am freaking good mold maker, again, trained to do it. I also am a damn good scratch builder...you present pepakura to me and I see a fun new toy to apply my old skills to a new method.Im no dummy, I see some practical applications for it and I want to incorporate it into what I already do to give me yet another skill set. Can I stop some guy in France from doing the same? Should he have the right to regulate my knowledge growth, or me the same to him? Its a TOOL...lets avoid the talk of how hard a tool it is or isnt to use..bottom line, its a method to achieve results. In the hand of the average person...rarely will it yield the same results as when used by someone with well rounded skill sets. My long winded point being...those who COULD use pep for evil recast gain...already have the skills to do it a LOT of other ways that are faster and more effecient. I think we need to be more focused on the actual END of recasting...A TRUE RECASTER LOOK FOR FINISHED PRODUCT HE CAN POP IN SILICONE AND CAST A LOT OF PRODUCT FAST WITHOUT FABRICATION EFFORT. a RECASTER LOOKING TO MAKE PROFIT IS NOT GOING TO LEARN TO USE PEPAKURA AND TAKE THE TIME TO MAKE A FINISHED SALEABLE PROP. No offense to 3d modellers, but there is NOT ONE pep file out there that yields a SALEABLE prop without clean up, scratchbuild additions, $#!T ton of bondo and sanding work.The amount of work that goes into making a pep file become a salable item takes it right out of the very definition of the target intent of recasters.

Take that home and chew on it.

 

[Spartan 051]

This is the original home of pep armor and as such we've developed our own way of doing things. Pep has become refined by our fantastic modelers and the process streamlined. In short we have become REALLY GOOD at peping, to the point where even the old school pros are seeing it as a viable method of prop making.



Some are only seeing it at the current state where it seems like a low skill threat to all the hard work they do. Most understand that it is only an armature for classic work though.



Anyone who has ever done pep knows how much work is required beyond the basic model for a good final prop.



EDIT: Read that thread on the RPF and all TMP is getting at is that custom pieces and imagery should be respected as belonging to the artist. Example: You make a custom unique saber. People should not make and distribute pep models of said saber without your explicit consent because it would be a form of indirect recasting.

I went and posted in that thread, probably shouldn't have though. I was a little pissed when I did.



Basically his entire argument was a question. "Am I protected from having my stuff copied digitally?"



Answer. "If it's your totally original work (not based on stuff you don't own) then yes."



If not then why would they use your stuff instead of original reference material?





I think the fear may also be: What if pep can get it done quicker than old school tricks with a similar level of quality? (why the misunderstanding about modeling is a big deal). Nothing sucks more than working on a huge expensive project and somebody beating you by mile because they got a quicker process with a final product as good as yours.

I dont know if i would agree with you



A talented 3d modelers can have very good looking model done in a few hours.



EVERY thing posted on the internet can be copied people can take a pep model an "edit it" or even repost post it an call it there one with very little work an they can take all the credit.



An dont know if i would agree pep can beat a sculptor by a mile most pep builders spend very little time most pep then glass an paint an looks like they didnt put any effort into it. If you compare it to a well done piece (finhead great example) take hours and hours an your not factoring in the hours the modeler has spent on the files



yes pep is alot cheaper but not the fastest by any means

Simple? So the efforts of modellers spending dozens of hours perfecting pep files are useless, seeing how simple pepakura is? It's rather funny how many people out there seem completely helpless without pepakura given that fact. I'm glad I don't share my files any more though, seeing how simple they are.



I don't particularly enjoy how this thread seems to be more about bashing TMP's views than actually discussing pepakura ethics like the topic asks. While I don't agree with TMP's views, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and openly going after him like this isn't cool in my book. Especially if he isn't a member and can defend himself.



My views on pepakura ethics when it comes to selling casts are similar to what STEALTH states in the first post. If the pepakura file is released for free, you can do whatever you want with it. If the modeller asks you not to sell copies, then you shouldn't.

I completely agree with you.



I find most people are helpless with out pep an have know idea how to scale a piece unless it was done for them



I dont know if i would agree if a person released there files for free i think the person can do what ever they want with they build. Now if a modeler gets paid for there work then they should ask before selling there work.



I have more of a problem with people ripping game content an calling it there on pep models that to me is "recasting" they are taking credit for a models they did not make all they did was rip and unfold.

 

[Brandon McClain]

Having done some beginning modeling, I can see some of both sides of the coin. Lets use rundown as an example. His new Reach suit is spectacular, and I can't begin to imagine how long he took to build the entire thing. I mean, he took it upon himself to do the whole thing! And then he released the files for free. Me personally, I would have paid for them, they provide a great armature for working with. Had he asked that the files be used for personal use, I would absolutely abide by that. By in his generosity, he has allowed the files for use. That being said, the pep models are just a base to work from. The first helmet he released back in December is great. But it lack lots of little things, and that is fine. Like Drgnfrye said, its just a base. I spent more than 120 hours on the helmet AFTER the pep stage to get it where I wanted it, and I still could have done more. Now, I have made the helmet available. Am I a recaster? I would say absolutely not. The files I used as a BASE were made available publicly and free. If there had been any doubt about it, I would have contacted the modeler to clarify. I try and credit Rundown as much as I can for his work, but I had to make significant changes adding on the pep. I had to rework even the most basic of curves to get it where I wanted it. Same thing with the thighs he released. Yes, if you take a quick glance, it looks like the original model, but if you were to put them side by side, it makes a world of difference. Rundown gave the bones I needed to start with, had he not, I am afraid I just don't have the skills to do a raw sculpt. As such, I wish I could do more to credit him for his hard work. Modeling is so far from easy. Especially GOOD modeling. But even the good modelers don't get all the detail in, neither should they feel obligated to. Sometimes its easier to just use other mediums to achieve detail. So in short, if the modeler doesn't want to have his work used for eventual casting, thats fine. Its their prerogative, and is ENTIRELY understandable, especially considering how often people fail to recognize their effort. If they charge for their models, or release them for free then I feel its fine to eventually use that base for casting. That being said, the pep is only a base, which is expanded upon and improved by the individual, which makes it an individual piece of work. My two cents.



PS. Rundown, and all the other modelers, THANK YOU!!!!! So many of us just couldn't do this without you and your many selfless hours of hard work. Chapeau!!!!