Weapon Builds. Canon Vs. Custom- The H3 Shotty

[korekillerking]

how powerful is an elephant gun then?

 

[SPARTAN II]

If an elephant gun is meant to take down, well... an elephant... I'd say very powerful

 

[Loess]

how powerful is an elephant gun then?

Imagine a piece of lead approximately the size of your thumb, going about a 1/4 mile per second. It's pretty devastating.

 

[SPARTAN II]

So, like I said... very powerful, lol.

 

[juliet76]

I'd love to see some scale mock-ups, they'd really help me with my build. I can wait a bit, I'm vacillating between doing the shotgun first, or a slight modification of Hunter's H3 concept art rocket launcher first. I guess my biggest stumbling block on this has been procrastinating on finding a higher-res version of WOF's blueprint to run off at 1:1 to the scale I want.

Okay I'm on it now, printing out some pictures for me to get sizings off of. I get to use my finished drawing desk (modified kitchen table) for the first time properly. Yay!

Can't help on the high-res issue sorry. I'm printing out on A4's and scaling up. When I get to building I guess I'll be doing more detailed drawings of specific components/sections by hand (which, truth be told I'm looking forward to).

SII, it'd be fantastic to start getting some general standards for weapon scaling, that'd make us look even better when we get together in a big group.

Ya think? lol

It was juliet76's idea, though. Want the credit to go to the right person, after all

May have been my idea, but it won't mean squat without the help of others like yourself mate.

SII did you have any sort of scale that you've used on your drawings that maybe I can use as a starting point?

 

[Syphon]

sounds very well thought out and executed, great job, hope to see this when it is completed since im VERY partial to the CQB style of fighting " get close or go home"

one thought i had for the recoil "problem" that might increase your RoF, if i may suggest, is adding some barrel ports or some kind of breacher that fits in where the choke is adjusted (kinda like a breacher + choke adjuster, lol dont know the name of it, mix), ya know, something like the barret's breacher except have it kick the gasses up to force the barrel back down, only problem i could see is that you might lose some critical force behind the shot due to the dispersion of the gas.

and if your really worried about staying close to canon, i would just say that the resulting modifications were quickly developed and distributed after some minor difficulties in CQB engagement situations, i think that might be plausible since the UNSC would be under a great amount of stress due to the war against the covenant to develop effective and easy to use weapons quickly

hope that i helped fuel your imagination a lil more (not that you needed any help )

best of luck

 

[Loess]

Hmm... do you mean something like a muzzle break? Here's Vera, from Firefly, The porting geometry in the flash suppressor could be modified to act like one.

 

[Syphon]

lol oops, i looked it up, what i was talking about is the muzzle brake you can add to the end of the barrett's barrel, i always called it a breacher.....dont know why

anyway, here is a pic i found to show what i mean

red arrows show where the gas from firing a shot is released, the way the barrett actually releases the gas is cool in the effect that it actually pulls you forward and reduces recoil, my suggestion was to use something like that to hold the choke adjustment piece, i think this would keep the recoil down and keep the shotty within reasonable dimensions

hope that helped

 

[juliet76]

...one thought i had for the recoil "problem" that might increase your RoF, if i may suggest, is adding some barrel ports or some kind of breacher that fits in where the choke is adjusted (kinda like a breacher + choke adjuster, lol dont know the name of it, mix), ya know, something like the barret's breacher except have it kick the gasses up to force the barrel back down, only problem i could see is that you might lose some critical force behind the shot due to the dispersion of the gas.

Yeah I know where you're coming from and I did consider it, but figured as standard the shorter barrel would compensate for it. Believe me carbines are noticeably quicker to aim as you get less sway from the shorter barrel when bringing it to bear.

Now clearing up what's what as far as muzzle extensions go. On Vera (oh Vera...) is a flash suppressor. As rifles got short... oh bugger it, wiki can explain-

Earlier rifle designs from the 19th century tended to have longer barrels than modern rifles. A beneficial side effect of the long barrel is that the gunpowder is completely burnt before the bullet leaves the barrel, usually resulting only in a puff of smoke from the muzzle. However, if the same weapon is "cut down", as is common in cavalry and jungle-combat adapted versions, the bullet would often leave the barrel before the powder was completely consumed. In this case, the still burning powder would emit a bright flash from the muzzle.

When barrel lengths were dramatically decreased with the introduction of various assault rifles, this flash became a serious problem in terms of preserving night vision during combat. Originally limited to "special purpose" roles, it was now expected that all infantry weapons would have short barrels with this problem, and thereby be of limited use in night combat. Flash suppressors became common on late-World War II and later assault rifle designs, and are almost universal on these weapons today.

It is commonly thought that they are used on military rifles to reduce visibility to the enemy, but the size of a device necessary to hide the muzzle flash from an enemy during night fighting would be prohibitively large. Military flash suppressors are designed to reduce the muzzle flash from the shooter to preserve the shooter's night vision, usually by directing the incandescent gases to the sides, away from the line of sight of the shooter. Military forces engaging in night combat are still quite visible at a distance when firing, and must move quickly after firing to avoid receiving return fire.

Okay Syphon, the name you had- breeching choke adjuster is correct but it's not what you were talking about for reducing the recoil. The first company that I heard of doing that was Mag-na-port and so the practice when I hung in shooting circles (many many years ago now), was referred to as mag-na-porting (it may well be called something different these days) no matter who did it. Mag-na-porting involves putting grooves or holes in the top of the barrel up near it's end with the intention that a portion of the gasses behind the projectile will jet out of the holes, helping to force the barrel down as the projectile leaves the weapon and thus reducing recoil. You see it a lot on pistols in movies these days as flashy barrel extensions (I think that's by some other company) like in Wanted and Romeo and Juliet.

Now the breeching choke adjuster. You can get chokes for shotguns (and I assume just the extensions by themselves) with extensions on them designed for breeching doors. Let's see wiki again shall we?

When used in as a door breaching system, the shotgun may be provided with a muzzle extension to allow it to be pressed firmly against the door while providing the correct standoff distance for optimum performance. While there are specialized rounds for breaching doors with minimal hazard to any occupants of the room, any type of round will do the job, though with some degradation of effectiveness and increased risk of collateral damage. In operations in Iraq, the shotgun was the preferred method of door breaching by infantry units, ideally with a frangible breaching slug. For the breaching role, shorter barrels are preferred, as they are more easily handled in tight quarters

Here's a picture of the Remington 870 TAC Desert recon-

That section at the end is the breeching extension (attached to the choke adjuster inside the barrel). The reason it is there is so the shooter and his allies will not get injured by the breeching round and to prevent the shotty blowing up. See when you pull the trigger on a firearm you're triggering an explosion in the bullet. That explosive force needs to go somewhere and the design of firearms is that it travels out of the barrel behind the projectile. But if you've got the end of the barrel blocked by, let's say a door, the projectile may not be able to escape the barrel. But you've still got an explosive force that needs to go somewhere, and it will, if not out the barrel then back into the receiver. And that's about the point where someone starts screaming that wasn't supposed to.

But, if you have that little attachment on the end of your shotty, then the projectile has room to exit the barrel and the explosive gasses can escape safely via those little holes all around the extension. Door gets breeched, hostiles get "pacified", and it's high fives all round for everyone else.

References-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_suppressor
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms...esert_Recon.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotguns#Combat_use
http://www.magnaport.com/sgun.html

Now, where was I going? Oh yes-

I've dimensioned up the outside of Wizard's shotty blueprint and translated it to the ply board. All looks right, but without a doubt it's freaking massive. Lol, I can't wait to cut it out and post some pictures! It's like something out of the Looney Toons.

It's been a really good exercise to clearly demonstrate the oversized dimensions. I don't think I'll even be able to reach the trigger! The pump is probably bigger then my calf and is longer then my forearm. Loess- The dimensions you had- The point on the stock measures at about 15'', but the point on the pump is about 30''!

I started this with the intention of just shortening the M90A to a more practical length. But it is now clear that all the dimensions are oversized and the entire thing must be scaled down. Unfortunately this will also require the reduction of the ammo for my intended "pumping" version of the build as the 3.5'' long rounds will just be too big for a scaled down M90A.

 

[Syphon]

that clears everything up a lot lol, that original shotty was freakin HUGE, i guess it would have to be for spartans to use but....dang! sounds like ya got everything well in had tho, i look forward to seeing the end product, it will probably "blow us away"

 

[Spawn Camp3r]

well... I was shooting my shot gun today and noticed that even on a standard pump action you still have to flip the gun over to insert a shell into the tubular mag. by extension you could really just take a shot gun and flip it upside down and move the trigger assembly some how (as well as the pump) to the other side and get on without a hitch. the only problem that still remains as I tried to state earlier is that the ejection port needs to be placed in the same area as the lifter (or in this case the pusher) once again I point to the first picture I had in my last post, which is why in my design I placed the ejection port further back.

 

[Loess]

Yeah, the Halo shotty is huge. Since it's an 8 guage, and looks proportional to a 12, I figured that the measurements would be something like that. I was guessing that the whole thing would have to be scaled to a size near a 12 gauge. At least with a scaled-down 12 gauge version, you'd be able to find dummy shells to load it with.

And Vera, some day, I want to build her... even if it means tracking down a real Saiga 12 shotgun to mold a dummy receiver off of.

Camper, if the magazine tube was above the barrel, you wouldn't need the shell lifter at all, the round would drop down in line behind the barrel all by itself. The only thing to remember is that the spent hull would have to be ejected before the next round would be released from the mag. It's an interesting design challenge....

 

[spaero2011]

Here's Vera, from Firefly, The porting geometry in the flash suppressor could be modified to act like one.

My knowledge of Firefly might be a bit off, but isn't that Jayne?

lol oops, i looked it up, what i was talking about is the muzzle brake you can add to the end of the barrett's barrel, i always called it a breacher.....dont know why
*snip*
hope that helped

That sounds like a good idea, but I think one of the reasons it's not included on shotguns is because on a rifle, and this sounds repetitive but it's true, there is rifling to ensure that the single bullet flies straight. It won't clip the vents and jerk the shot way off-target. With a shotgun, a ) there is no rifling, so the shots are less accurate, and b ) there are several pellets traveling through the barrel at the same time, both of which increase the likelihood that one of the pellets would clip the vent and either knock the shot out of line or even possibly jerk the gun entirely out of your hands.

I don't handle many shotguns, but from what I can recall the most commonly used recoil-reducing system is a simple pad on the end of the butt or a leather patch over your shoulder. It still bucks like a bronco, but it hurts less.

EDIT: Gettin' rid of smilies I didn't want.

 

[Loess]

There's a person in that pic? My eye was always drawn to the big, shiny rifle. I think a muzzle break *could* work on a shotgun, since the pellets are contained in the shot cup for a few feet out from the muzzle. It would certainly work if you were shooting slugs. The biggest problem with the Halo shotty is getting it to a size that a person could actually use, without having to clamp it to a fence like a swivel gun to prevent broken shoulders.

 

[aaronjs]

i think that it is a good idea iv being thinking of making a shotgun

 

[juliet76]

i think that it is a good idea iv being thinking of making a shotgun

Well hopefully we'll be able to help standardize a size for all our shotty builds.


A quick note.

For those that are coming in late on this topic and haven't bothered to read from the first page- DO IT NOW! For those that haven't bothered to listen (shame on you)- This is not a Work In Progress thread, this is a discussion that started about building a self designed variation of the M90A, and has now evolved into a discussion about the sizing of the weapon and how to scale it to a more realistic size.

So we as a community can get a better idea of just how oversized Bungie's dimensions are for a real person I've taken the blue prints drawn up by Wizard of Flight (see the top of the Weapons and props forum in Creation discussion), dimensioned the side profile up, and then transferred it to a sheet of 7mm ply board so we have a 1:1 scale model to work with. Hopefully from here we can come up with a more realistic sizing that we can all use to build our H3 shotty's with!

Now, picture time (special thanks to my beautiful partner Linda who took all the photos )!

Before looking at the cut out here are my height and arm length to help people get an idea of scale.

Here it is on the sheet of ply drawn up to it's dimension of 48.8'' long (1240mm). Note: My sheet of ply was only 1220mm long. I had to cut an extra 20mm and add it too the barrel.

Edit: I left this picture out the first time. Spot on 48.8''

Mine's bigger then yours!

Sorry about the lighting in this one.

Eye and ear protection must be worn at all times when firing a Looney Toons firearm!

Look I apologise... the thing was just so big that I had to go stupid with it.

Contender for 2009 air shotty?

I kindly demonstrate how NOT to check your weapon is loaded.

What's more sophisticated then a man with a fine cigar, his dog, and oversized cartoon shotgun?

Well I think that should clearly demonstrate that the game size is too big (I know we all knew that but now we know HOW big). The question is now what scale do we make it to? I have enough ply left over to make another cut out. Rather than just picking a percentage out of thin air I think we should base it on something like a real world combat shotgun's size. Or, we want the overall dimension to be- "X" or length from butt to pump etc.

So, suggestions? Input?


Edit: I've added the picture with the measuring tape.

 

[LeeKegan]

I loved the poses, and man that thing is enormous.

Just for my stupidity, what does the measurements translate into inches?

 

[BlindRascal]

I'd say 40-42ish inches, but thats me. I'm also 2 inches shorter than you.

 

[Loess]

Here are measurements from a real-world Mossberg 12-gauge. For the record, the slide on this is a little too far forward to be comfortable for someone with short arms, that's why I had suggested 20" as the approximate location of the slide when it was fully forward.

 

[S1l3nt V1p3r]

Renovating the house, I see?

But on topic, that Shotty looks HUGE, full scale would be a no-go in my opinion. Go for a 40" Shotgun, perhaps?