Weapon Builds. Canon Vs. Custom- The H3 Shotty

[juliet76]

...
Just for my stupidity, what does the measurements translate into inches?

You know I live in place that's still part of the British empire and we converted to the metric system over thirty years ago. Why you fellas are still using a system originating in a place you fought to be independent of is beyond me.

When it comes to my builds and smaller more detailed dimensions I won't be converting to the imperial system, so and so many thou' just does my head in. So I've added a link to a conversion calculator in my sig to help make all our lives easier.

But just a quick reference that'd be handy for you to know-

2.54cm= 25.4mm= 1''

Renovating the house, I see?

But on topic, that Shotty looks HUGE, full scale would be a no-go in my opinion. Go for a 40" Shotgun, perhaps?

Nah, we rent, so I've built a spray booth under the house for when I go to spray paint things.

40'' still a little bigger than I was hoping. If we can get it under the meter, which is *goes to conversion table in own sig*, 39.3701'' I think will be more practical for a real world combat shotty.

Here are measurements from a real-world Mossberg 12-gauge. For the record, the slide on this is a little too far forward to be comfortable for someone with short arms, that's why I had suggested 20" as the approximate location of the slide when it was fully forward.

Okay now we're talking. Let me do up some measurements based on that and I'll post 'em. I've got the day off so I'll try and get it done soon, but there's a couple of plumbers here so I'm a bit cautious about drawing up a shotgun where they can see me!

 

[Spawn Camp3r]

did some research on 8 gauge shells and the approximate bore diameter is 21.21mm then if you add roughly 4mm for bore thickness you can scale the halo 3 version to where the width of the barrel is about 25mm

 

[juliet76]

did some research on 8 gauge shells and the approximate bore diameter is 21.21mm then if you add roughly 4mm for bore thickness you can scale the halo 3 version to where the width of the barrel is about 25mm

I had a post on the first page with the bore diameter and a link to shotgun gauging formulas, would have saved you the searching Spawn Camper (but thanks, handy for the late comers).

As for the barrel OD been 25mm, that's a really good size, really good. 25mm dowel or some form of piping should be no problem to get over here and 1'' (25.4mm) shouldn't be a problem for you boys to get. But, and there's always a but, that still won't scale the shotty down to a reasonable overall size as it's only about a 10% reduction (the current barrel OD is 28mm). Maybe we should consider the barrel OD been scaled differently?


Edit: P.S. A while ago I mentioned I'd do up a rough drawing showing the loading system I have in mind for the shotty build. Well the plumbers are still here, so I've finished that little drawing up.

While mucking around with the M90A in Forge I noticed that the loading port drops straight down. So after canceling out other concepts I think I'll just go with that. You push the round down on the load port which will spring down (note spring housings in the drawing) and then slide it forward with your thumb. The round then drops down to be ejected (which I'll mention more about when I've built some test rigs). I figure I'll put a leaf spring or something hinged at the bottom in front of the rounds to prevent them rattling around and to help coax them down to the ejection port.

 

[juliet76]

Here are measurements from a real-world Mossberg 12-gauge. For the record, the slide on this is a little too far forward to be comfortable for someone with short arms, that's why I had suggested 20" as the approximate location of the slide when it was fully forward.

Okay I reduced the dimensions by 20% which brings us close to the dimensions on Loess' Mossberg. I think this is a good size.

The two sets of dimensions.

It's still a bit long as far as the slide postioning goes been only about half an inch shorter than the Mossberg. But that's still shorter than a real world shotgun, did you see the length on the full size cut out?

The rest seems good, except maybe the barrel size. 22mm (roughly .875'') or should we scale it up to 25mm (roughly 1'') to make it suit the real 8 gauge cartridge? For reference I have some spent 12 gauge rounds here and they measure 20mm on the OD.

If you think this size is worth doing another cut out on let me know and I'll start scaling it up as soon as I can.

 

[Laserath]

Man go for it, it will be amazing.

 

[SPARTAN II]

[...]

May have been my idea, but it won't mean squat without the help of others like yourself mate.

SII did you have any sort of scale that you've used on your drawings that maybe I can use as a starting point?

True enough. Like many things -- Adam & Ithica's Hayabusa helmet, LeeKegan's SR & my schematics -- a lot of joint efforts go on here. That's one of the great things about this particular community; the air of co-operation and collaboration that exists is very inspiring/motivational

As for the scale I've used for my schematics, well... to put it simply, I scaled each one (SR, SPNKr) to comfortably fit someone my size (I stand 5'10"). So, would that be more or less the average height of a person?

My process for determining scale for any scratch-built prop I design on paper is, while looking at whatever reference material I can find, I use my own body (hand, arm, torso) as a general size reference to get the right "feel" for how big or small the prop is supposed to be.

Most everything I do is done by eye alone, though sometimes I do have actual dimensions to reference for sizing. For example, the SPNKr schematics I'm working on are only about 10cm shorter than the stated measurements for the in-game model, but still scaled down a bit to better fit an averaged-sized human.

Though that approach has served me well with every scratch-build project I've done in the past (usually the dimensions of my scratch-builds differ from the actual prop by only a few percent; my TNG Medkit is within 5% of the screen-used dims), unfortunately there typically aren't any mathematical calculations involved. So, I don't know if this helps much.

Great work you're doing on planning this out, btw. I can't believe all the thought that's gone into this so far. Very extensive. I can't wait to see the end result, buddy

 

[juliet76]

Okay, it's been a while since I posted here but this subject is far from finished.

the only time I manged to find during the week was to scale down the M90A dimensions by 20%. I'm going to transfer them onto ply board and cut it out so we have a cmparison of the two sizes today.

Now a couple of other things-

1)I mentioned earlier that when I get to building the bulldog that I want to put lights/sounds in it. Does anyone know of a shotgun effects kit being done here on the forums or should I start looking elsewhere?

2)I'm still working on the Bulldog. I'm converting a copy of Wizard's M90A blueprints (with his permission- I spoke to him in the early days of this thread) to the M90A- Bulldog. When I'm finished I'll post 'em.

3)The shotty needs more reference pictures here in the galleries (really most of the weapons do). I've mucked around with the idea of removing the background from the pictures I've taken in Forge to make the images clearer like this-

Is it worth doing (it takes time but I'm willing to do it if you're willing to wait) and what angles do we need pictures of for the best results?

I think that's it. If not I'll just post it later.

 

[Spawn Camp3r]

made this up a bit to kinda work out a pump fuction

 

[Loess]

That reference is epic win! Dropping the background is really helpful, especially when printing shop refs.

I don't know of any shotgun effects boards, I haven't really looked for them, though. I would love to see the bulldog be made, it really seems like something that would be issued on board ships.

 

[juliet76]

made this up a bit to kinda work out a pump fuction

Exactly how my thinking started out Spawn Camper.

I'm going to go with the loading port dropping down for two reasons- 1) that's how it is in the game. 2) I foresaw (after many many hours of thought) too many issues with the port hinged at the back as far as angles on the internals of the loading system goes. Straight 90 degree angles will make things less complicated I feel, but limit the capacity.

As for making the mag and the ejection system work like the real thing- I don't know how to do it simply, so I've abandoned the idea for the primary build (so far). If you can get it to work though please let us know.

I have got a plan for the ejection system I just need to build a test rig to show it. It'll be easier to explain if I just show you guys.

That reference is epic win! Dropping the background is really helpful, especially when printing shop refs.

I don't know of any shotgun effects boards, I haven't really looked for them, though. I would love to see the bulldog be made, it really seems like something that would be issued on board ships.

Okay at some point I'll start on a reference package but that'll still be a while off. I'll do a bunch and then run it past you guys (just a couple of you via PM maybe?) and we'll post the best.

Thanks also for embracing the Bulldog fellas. I'm hoping I have enough ply board left over to also do a cutout of that this weekend.

 

[LeeKegan]

I have a couple of ideas on how you can make it open and close when you pump it. I will try to draw something up or build a mockup and film it to show you. Give me a couple of days!

 

[juliet76]

I have a couple of ideas on how you can make it open and close when you pump it. I will try to draw something up or build a mockup and film it to show you. Give me a couple of days!

Interested to see what you come up with Lee.

I already know what I'm going to do for both the loading and ejecting. Never figured out how to get it all working with the on top magazine system though. So I'll just be going with that small vertical system that I posted earlier.

So I got the 20% reduction cut out but ran out of decent light to take pictures (plus I couldn't figure out how to work Linda's camera ). But here's a couple of dodgey phone photo's to keep you boys happy.

Everything that's anything usually starts here.

Then for this project gets transfered to here.

Then out lined.

Then cut out.

Then placed next to it's ginormous cousin!

More pics tomorrow when my camera woman is back at work.

 

[Loess]

oooooooo....

That looks more like it! A bit closer in scale to a 12 gauge, and more in line with the size of an actual human.

 

[juliet76]

Great work you're doing on planning this out, btw. I can't believe all the thought that's gone into this so far. Very extensive. I can't wait to see the end result, buddy

Plenty more to come buddy.

oooooooo....

That looks more like it! A bit closer in scale to a 12 gauge, and more in line with the size of an actual human.

Let's look closer then shall we?


I'll re-post my dimensions for reference.

A quick note- I didn't re-size the barrel OD a full 20%. It was 28mm and 20% would have made it 22mm- smaller then the barrel should be for the 8 gauge that the M90A is. So I only dropped it to 25mm as recommended by Spawn Camper. I think it still looks fine and balances the accuracy of a real sized shotgun plus the required size for the 8 gauge cartridge. Thanks Spawn Camper.

Here's a better picture of the two together. For late comers the top is a full sized side profile of the Halo 3 shotty according to Bungie's dimensions. The bottom is a 20% reduction dropping the length from 1240mm (48.80'') to 992mm (39.06'').

Some pictures to get a better idea of the size. Much better I think.

All in all I think this is the size to go with. But there's a couple of things I'd change, and will on the Bulldog.

The length of the grip felt small to me. Now I don't have huge hands (but not little either. They're a good size ) so I could see this been an issue for some others who may go to do this build going off of these dimensions and decided to do a comparison.

Here's reference to the size of my hand (note there's a conversion calculator in my sig if you need it).

Here we have a toy M4 that I scored last year (it's hard to even get full sized toy guns here). I've done some reference, I think you're starting to find I'm good at that, and as best as I can tell it is 1:1 scale.

At first I thought it was that the M90A's grip was too small after the conversion, but after closer inspection this was not the case.

Length wise the M90A's grip is I'd have to say exactly the same as the M4's.

But it's where the your thumb curves around the stock that's the issue.

Here we see that the back of the grip travels up much further on the M4...

Giving your hand much more height on the grip and letting your trigger finger sit much further forward allowing better purchase on the trigger.

At this point it must be noted that despite a hell of a lot of great research done by the Bungie development team nothing beats building a real working prop as I don't believe there to be a fault with Wizard's file. I must also point out at this point in time that while I've done a pretty good job on the conversion, I'm going to be a mill out here or there. But not enough that this is a failing in my reproduction.

So I believe that a 20% reduction is exactly the way to go on this build for the average person. But I think it'd definitely be worth doing a re-examine of the upper back of the pistol grip, purely for comfort alone. After I found this the damn thing just seemed so uncomfortable and remember that's only 7mm ply board, you’re going to lose extra reach on your trigger finger when you make it at the correct thickness.

These are things I'll be taking into account when I do a cut out for the Bulldog, hopefully next weekend.

 

[LeeKegan]

I haven't got around to drawing up the ejection yet but did want to comment about the grip. I had to do modifications on the grip for my M6G. Because if I had left it the same as the drawings it would have been just like what your running into on your grip. I made minor adjustments and you can't really tell.

Can't wait to see the build!

Good luck!

 

[Loess]

......All in all I think this is the size to go with.

I think we have a winner! I tried to find a pic of a H3 shotgun in the hands of a normal sized character, but could only find a H1 version.


I agree with you and Lee that the grip should be modified to better fit in the real world. Accuracy can slip a little in favor of ergonomics.
I haven't started on it yet, but I have a couple ideas for how to make the loading ramp and mag function of a normal, mag-on-the-bottom shotgun work for this. I have to warn you, though, it'll probably be a bear of a mechanism to fit in a wood prop.

 

[S1l3nt V1p3r]

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! Keep it up!

Also, how were you able to draw the Shotgun so accurately without a blueprint in Full scale? Seems like you looked at the scaled blueprint and drew it freehand!

 

[dDUBb]

That is looking great so far. Makes me think I should have paid more attention during Drafting classes in high school. :rolleyes

- Dan

 

[Spawn Camp3r]

OMG I can't believe I forgot about this...

ok so I was watching a documentary on halo one day and learned an interesting fast
"the weapons on the ground where made 20% larger to make them more visible while playing"

this explains why it was so huge

OMG I just can't believe I forgot that...

 

[smilie120]

Amazing work so far!

Also are you aware that you look a lot like Chuck Liddell?