Artisan versus Craftsman. Does it matter? (WORD HEAVY)

[alix965]

I was going to wait a few weeks before I put this out...the rationale being by then ruffled feathers and hurt feelings would be soothed and therefore allow for a civil discourse on this subject. But then I thought, maybe a sedate conversation would serve this question less favorably than an spirited dsicussion. Then It occurred to me that this forum is proabably the most mature forum I have ever been involved with and seeing as how most of the members are costuming/weaponry nerds and video game geeks, like myself, we all probably know a thing or two about the importance of sensitivty to his fellow poster. The Legendary FX thread unpleasantness notwithstanding. Flavored "HATEorade"?! YUM?

In my estimation we are all mature enough to tackle the 800 pound gorilla in the Mjolnir suit in the room (in MY ROOM at least) without supressing opinions or ideas. This is not to say a free for all should ensue. I live and work in NYC and ride the subways everyday and if I were to live my life in the Real World the way some live their lives in the Cyber World, I would be dead or maimed or the subject of severe beatings, all day, everyday until I learned to treat people with respect. I know I don't have to say this but, conduct yourself accordingly. :cool

John Goodson I remember reading in the Making of Revenge of the Sith (or was it The Art of) book that he had to learn MAYA to create some of the models in that film and commented that it felt like he was cheating because with physical models you touch and feel, with digital ones you get the "...mass for free" I paraphrased everything but the quotation. He still created physical representations of various concept for Uncle George to roughly manhandle and 'modify' with his big meaty paws, but in the end those were scanned and composited.
Thing is, modelmaking in the film industry is quickly becoming a lost art. Here we find a member of the old guard learning the new(?) way of making something out of nothing and I have to wonder if the cold breath of obsolescence breathing down the neck of his chosen career path had something to do with him learning MAYA, or was this the natural progression of his given artform.

In the 405th we have many disciplines. There are various reasons for why members choose any particular method. Heck some even combine methods...but it seems that for the most part they are hand-made. In my opinion there is a certain level of charm and a tremendous amount of skill in making something out of nothing with just a few commonly available hand/power tools. In our very own Elite Section there Artists creating mind-bending things. It seems that just when you think you've seen it all there comes something more to boggle your mind. My mind's ass gets kicked, hardcore, at least once a month.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the time and effort the people here put into scaling, pepping and resining, glassing, molding, casting and foaming, sculpting, screwing, blueing, tattooing..is insane and awestriking! But I have a few favorite artists that post in those pages and without sounding like too much of a FAN-atic I'll state that more than once I've sat in front of my computer screen bleary-eyed. Dillgently perusing pics whispering to myself... I did not know wood could do that.

This of course is the method of operation I admire and so aspire to obtain a level of quality in my own works. I stare in wonder and think I want to be that good. I KNOW we've all done it. It's human nature to want to improve yourself...to be better.

Then there are what I consider to be Craftsperson<-see what i did there?
If doth care protest, know that I do not for a second consider the term craftsperson a second tier or a less skilled individual. As stated without being too neutral I think simple tools and skilled hands are the way humans have been making things for thousands of years..THOUSANDS. That in this day and age of hurry-quick-get-it-fast, that fact alone makes my mind race. And even a "push button, get armor" comment in jest holds a grain of truth. The problem with that idea is that it undermines all the work leading up to it. And to his credit, that 405ther took the time to sufficiently explain the lack of hurtful intent in his post. Others were not so kind. LOLZ. :eek

It would seem that the Halo universe lends itself particulary well to the hard lines and mass produced look and feel of a CNC router. It is the future after all, during an all consuming war in which time is a very real factor to it's outcome. But when I see a craftsman sitting at computer manipulating a wireframe of a particular model and see all the numbers in the axis columns of a vanishing horizon and grid squares and nurbs and polygons and lions and tigers and of course those goddamn bears...I see a clear demarcation between artisan and craftsperson. Thing is....and here's the ass-kicker. Does it matter?

If after you put that file though it paces, and finalize the model and cross your i's and pee your Q's, does it matter if the thing that comes out the other end is a perfect reprentation of whats on the screen? Especailly when you may have to spend days and weeks 'cleaning up' said thing by (gasp)HAND? Does it matter to the observer more than the creator? Is one more of a piece of art because it was worked on with human hands for months as opposed to weeks? What if two pieces made under different these disciplines are indistinguishable from each other...what then?

Moreover how heavily does final usage weigh on this sentiment. I remember seeing a video of Nightmare Armors' GARAGE/slash/'workshop' and seeing all those giant molds lying around and thinking, If I wanted to buy a suit it would cost a fortune. Then I see the awesomeness in the Legendary FX thread and thinking "DANG these guys are ringers. This is studio quality stuff. I'll bet they're attached to some production company'' Then I find that it's just a bunch of friends making stuff for each other. Why can't WE be friends. WHYYY!!??

It would behoove us to a man/woman to not look into other mediums and not begrudge each other a few advantages. Still
Discuss.

 

[marco polo]

too many words, i cried : (

 

[alix965]

too many words, i cried : (

I promise this is the last time I have brain drain here. I was gonna delete aa couple of dozen pargaphs...but its all SOOO good! HAW HAW

 

[marco polo]

haha alright cool

 

[Akademee]

Too long, didn't read!

Just kidding, I read your article in it's entirety and I am having a bit of a time putting my finger on exactly what you are trying to say. I fully understand the mind-melting skill of the true artisans in this community and how we always sit and wish we could do some of these things.

It sounded as if you tried to say that the difference between an artisan and a craftsman is that one uses true skill and enjoys the 'Journey" so to speak, and the craftsman attempts to make the best product in the shortest amount of time.

I'm not trying to call anything out here, I'm just attempting to clarify as you put a lot of effort into this post.

Based on my interpretation, when you mentioned the CNC machines, that is some intense work. Making the model on the computer is not just, as you say, "push button, receive armor." The design process can take weeks and although the process of turning virtual into reality takes much less time, think of the complexity of the machine and the intellect of the operator to produce a product of such fine quality.

I would not consider myself any bit of an artisan, but more of a craftsman. I believe a true "artisan" possesses another quality that most people do not, such as Leonardo DaVinci's super-fast-eye, among many other things. A craftsman is someone who can be a normal person and through hundreds of hours of practice and experimentation, the line between artisan and craftsman can become very blurred.

And as far as I know, we are friends here, we enjoy seeing each other's work and sometimes we sell and trade stuff. I know many of us like to keep to ourselves but we all love that big bit of attention we all get when showing off our stuff!

It is our nature!

 

[alix965]

I read your article in it's entirety and I am having a bit of a time putting my finger on exactly what you are trying to say.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I used all those words to try and figure out if there exists a friendly rivalry(?) between the different creative types here. Kinda like bullet bike types versus Harley bike riders. If such a divide exists is it one of those things that no one likes to talk about? I hate to make it sound all cloak and daggerish but I think most people here value modesty above all else. Which is a good thing for a newbie like me. So I went the long way around to not getting banned. I think my lack of clarity was a result of an overwrought effort at neutrality. That and this new thesaurus I got for my birthday...booyah!!!!:-0

But, you hit on a lot of valid points especially how the artist can sometimes transcend the medium with years of practice and training.

 

[Akademee]

You are free to make any distinction you want between artisan and craftsman, as are all of use. As goes for modesty, that may not always be the case. I don't think we are braggarts about our armor, such behavior is looked down upon in this forum, especailly when it is attached to things like:

"My armor rocks and yours is a piece of S@#$"

When it comes to any craft, especially one that is going to be displayed to people, unless you are 100% dispassionate about what anyone thinks of you (and there are very few), you are your worst critic.

I would have to agree with "modesty is the best policy" here because we are just here to come together as a community who love halo stuff. Even these masters like Adam, Sean Bradly, LeeKegan, bevbor, skullcandygirl, and many others that I can't list right now are always looking to get better. Each project may be better than the last in a constant 'battle' with improvement in methods, techniques, and budgets.

but as for a rivalry, I don't think there is any between craftsmen and artisans. If that truly were the case, I would not believe it would stay 'friendly' for very long....

BTW, were you afraid of offending someone and getting banned?

 

[Hugh Holder]

I understand what you are trying to say alix,

I just read on facebook earlier someone say they "just looked at the Legendary Armor thread, and are debating on continuing their own." Or something to that nature.

There really is no reason for someone to feel discouraged from working on their projects. New methods and techniques are just part of this hobby. Aren't those factors part of just about every industry?

It really just comes down to having access to the equipment and the willingness to put down $$$$ more than everyone else. And even if someone claims to "have the hook up" someone somewhere is picking up the tab, and no doubt its STEEP.

Those forms of manufacturing have been around and used for a good while now. It's just the rising popularity in gaming/prop making has drawn individuals of varying skillsets that has put it in the spotlight.

I expect even more ambitious individuals to bring even more techniques/methods to the community.

I know this won't be heard by many, but people shouldn't go into prop making or costuming solely to get attention and be praised by their efforts. Because someone, somewhere is going to have the money and resources to put our best efforts to shame.

Legendary Armor is making more of an impression on me simply by the way they are working together and bringing multiple skills to the table, rather than the tools they're working with. That's how many other armoring communities have grown to make great things. I'm taking note of this, and am hoping to make my next project more of a group effort.

Take it as something to inspire you, but don't be afraid that this style of armoring is going to become the norm on this forum. If it was truly easy or cheap to do, then everyone would have already been doing it.

 

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well, I'd say, we're artisans. Artisans work to make hand-manufactured, one-off goods of great quality. The goods are of more an artistic capacity, than practical, yes?

Craftsmen work to make goods with a practical use, and generally, more mechanically complex than an artisan's work. They're also typically faster at their craft.

But, really, the terms are close enough in meaning, no one should be offended. Most artisans are craftsmen, and most craftsmen are artisans, in their own right. You call me an artisan, I'm more likely to politely disagree with the compliment. You call me a craftsman, I have to agree, because I craft things, much of the time with mechanics, or electronics involved.

I dunno, I'm kinda tired and rambling.

 

[ventrue]

Personally, I don't really see a difference between a craftsman and an artisan. But maybe that's because because both words translate into the same German word

 

[Hickeydog]

Personally, I don't really see a difference between a craftsman and an artisan. But maybe that's because because both words translate into the same German word

Du spracht Deutsch? Mien Deutsch bin nicht so gut.

Anyways, I consider EVERYONE on this forum to be artists. We create art. Our armor serves no purpose other than to be viewed others, just like a painting, or a statute, or a picture.

Now, if someone was to build armor simply for protection (like armor is supposed to do), then that person is a pure craftsman. They build something to serve a purpose. If someone built armor that both looked like Spartan armor AND protected them, then they would be both a craftsman and an artist.

 

[kupokitty]

We've got both types on the 405th. The artists make it pretty and the craftsmen make it comfy.

 

[ventrue]

Du spracht Deutsch? Mien Deutsch bin nicht so gut.

Yes, naturally, being from Germany - What's more surprising is that you do as well :-D

Anyways, I consider EVERYONE on this forum to be artists. We create art. Our armor serves no purpose other than to be viewed others, just like a painting, or a statute, or a picture

I'm still thinking about this part. You do have a point, we mostly build purposeless things just to look at (i.e. art... ) and I would never deny that a dummy with a Spartan costume can improve any apartment.
What I think is missing, though, is the creative part. We do create in the sense that we buy materials and build things with them, but we do not usually create the idea behind it, it's just a copy of existing work. Is somebody who makes copies of art still an artist, just because he produces art, regardless of how?

 

[kupokitty]

*cough* Andy Warhol. *cough*

 

[Hickeydog]

Yes, naturally, being from Germany - What's more surprising is that you do as well :-D



I'm still thinking about this part. You do have a point, we mostly build purposeless things just to look at (i.e. art... ) and I would never deny that a dummy with a Spartan costume can improve any apartment.
What I think is missing, though, is the creative part. We do create in the sense that we buy materials and build things with them, but we do not usually create the idea behind it, it's just a copy of existing work. Is somebody who makes copies of art still an artist, just because he produces art, regardless of how?

I think art restorers or copiers are usually thought of as artists..

And while we may be copying something, we still add our own flare to the piece, like battle damange and paint jobs.

 

[Nintendude]

To me the two are the same each person has a different way of creating something the way they want it to be done or look, with myself a unfold has to be perfect and to me it's a art in itself of doing a unfold.

 

[ventrue]

*cough* Andy Warhol. *cough*

Uhm... if that was for me: I don't really know anything about him. He died before I was born.

Ok, so did da Vinci, good point. Forget I said anything

I think art restorers or copiers are usually thought of as artists..

And while we may be copying something, we still add our own flare to the piece, like battle damange and paint jobs.

I actually wouldn't consider an art restorer to be an artist. But maybe my definition of an artist is a bit too strict.

But a unique paint job is definitely art. Like anything that goes beyond what the game shows, I guess.

I hope I haven't made anybody mad, by the way... The line between artist and craftsman is blurry, so everybody can probably just choose where he'd like to stand

 

[alix965]

and I would never deny that a dummy with a Spartan costume can improve any apartment.

Ventrue...You just described ME when I finally get my armor started/finished. A dummy with a Spartan costume. . And I say unto you my friend beware I'm tempted to tackle the subject of what is art and what makes an artist. But that may very well compell me to write another million word essay and nobody wants THAT...HAHAHouchies

@Akademme-I did fear I may be banned. As a newly joined member(does lurking count?) I was a bit worried that I might illicit an emotional "if you'd been here long enough you would know" response and since I don't deal very well to that kind of thing, the resultant exchange may have gotten me banned. I give respect so I expect respect in return...unfortunately that turns into some long windedness.

@Hugh-The collective effort of Legendary Armor and the end result is truly amazing. They may be the Forerunner of the evolution of the 405th. Local chapters/teams combining their effrots to increase awesomeness and decrease noob-idity. Almost like the mentoring program on a grander scale. Perhaps the 405th credo will become. Glad to have your skill set, but we're a team. That lone wolf stuff stays behind, clear?. Just imagine the possiblities

@SchizophrenicMC-Before I started I did a Google search of artisan versus craftsman just to see if I could find anything that made a clear distinction between the two, and I could find none. YOUR definition is by far the most definitive. Excellent observations. The "one-off" analogy suits DaVinci or Klimpt perfectly. Warhol not so much, he used a lot of industrial techniques to create his look so in theory he could mass-produce his 'art'. I think the way my brain works is too linear. I should have figured that out!!! But I'm curious, if someone called you an artist would that make you feel like they were diminishing the craftsmanship of your works? HMMM

@Hickeydog-Your understanding of the two things we're talking about jives well with what MC wrote. The weaponry, and more to the point the armor, created here usually goes on display at conventions, or wherever like minds meet around the world...and usually it's creator is part of that art. Hmm I wonder if that makes the wearer living art.

@Kupokitty-I tend to think Warhol made his name because of his subjects. Also that was a very succinct and cute way of categorizing the hundreds of members in the 405th. NICE WORK My question, is in your opinion, does one hold more 'value' than the other?

@Nintendude I've seen what you've done with the unfold for the jet pack. Hell that EFFIN JETPACK gave me bad dreams (thanks xhempie) but you were able to identify intersecting virtual lines that did not work in real life. I can only imagine how long it took you. I may be speaking as a total 3D model neophyte, but to me what you did there was nothing short of art. Maybe it's a sign of the times. Digital art over conventional medium.

 

[kupokitty]

Neither holds more value than the other. What we're supposed to do is strive to make delicious eye candy that doesn't interfere or break with basic actions, such as sitting down at a convention without worrying about the fragility of the cod piece, etc.. The artistic flair and the craftsmanship are supposed to seamlessly meld together when it comes to prop building.

 

[RoxyRoo]

I read the whole thing. Well said, good sir. I'd say more, but my brain is still processing your mini essay. lol