Rhinoc's Kat helmet!!

When should I release the helmet

  • Right here... right now

    Votes: 29 74.4%
  • Later... when the flashlight is done

    Votes: 10 25.6%

  • Total voters
    39
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I have a question:
How much time does it take to learn 3DS Max?
I would like to learn as to make the other helmets from the reach beta, but I dont know how and I'm busy scaling and making my Carter-ish armor.
And so far it's been a disaster....
3 pieces and peps later, all mis-scaled =(
So I want to focus on this

Back on topic, the helmet looks great :)
 
You are awsome! This project is great, i believe i will make one for my gf and she will wear it on 9/14 at Release Party :)
 
Yeah sorry about that... in Blender it seemed really simple, but when I export it I guess it changes to tri's

Ain't the tris, mate. Tris I can deal with. Now that I've gotten into the file, I have a few more things that I'm having trouble with though. I'm sorry for the harshness of this critique, but my goal is your improvement as a modeler for pep. Some of these pieces are literally unpepable. Not just, "you wouldn't want to pep them", but "paper cannot physically fold that tightly". The rim around the visor on the top is less than 2mm thick in some places when unfolded to normal size, cardstock can't hold a crease that tight. (Not to mention that the tabs for attaching parts together are more than twice that size. Same goes for the lines between the plates on the top of the helmet, in the visor, and around the ear. The valley is too steep, the paper will bend outward and cause warping, even if perfectly assembled. If this was a game asset, all this stuff would be fine, but you have to keep in mind that essentially every single poly you put into this model has to be cut, folded, and glued together, and the more contours and complex shapes you put in, the harder it is to actually construct. There are also a lot of places where things just aren't QUITE flat, meaning that it has to be divided up into twice as many pieces when being pepped. You also have some verts that dip inside the solid surface of another polygon, and that's a big no-no for pep. I hope some of this helps your modeling, you have great potential for making this stuff, and you've made some great files, you just need to dial down on the HD and learn to work with the limitations of pepakura and paper building. I suggest you get down and assemble a few HD pep models yourself, might give you a good sense of how to improve your work.

P.S. Grooves are the worst to pep. Ever. My personal philosophy is to let the builders do those later on in the detailing phase. It's a heck of a lot easier to go in with a dremel or bondo and make grooves than to try and build it that way from the start. They never turn out right in paper.

P.P.S. There is a reason all the visors on pep files on the site are so low-definition. They just get cut out afterwards. What's the point of spending several hours (yes, building that visor would literally take hours) on the visor, when it won't be of any use later (aside from making a vacuum forming buck, but it would need extra work even then).

P.P.P.S. I've taken a break from trying to unfold this thing, if anyone else wants to take a stab at it and thinks they can do better than me and actually finish, please do.
 
Rhinoc,

You're doing great hi-res modeling work!

My advice is to pep-build any hi-res models you put out. At least one. When I finished the pep work and tweaking of my ODST helm I had a better understanding of how to model regarding card stock limitations for the rest of the armor. Then I posted pics just to show it was doable. I know, it takes time and sucks but being able to design and build your own work makes you that much more efficient.

Best of luck to you!
 
OK... when I can I will edit the helmet. But I have a few things to say first.

1. Where the HELL is the problem with the rim of the visor?! Looking at reference pics if I had made it completely accurate then that would have been about 1/2 mm thick man!
2. Why do you dis the visor on my helmet, but not on rundowns, or ForgedReclaimer, or Hugh Holder, or anyone else who has made an HD helmet with an HD VISOR?!!!!!!
3. Why do you dis the grooves? Rundown did it on his ODST, so did Forged Reclaimer, and so did Sharkhead on his Iron Man (I think it was Sharkhead) and so did a bunch of other people but do you dis on them? NO!! YOU DIS ON MY WORK!!
4. About the verts in other faces. That was an accident, I was editing the cheek and it just messed itself up.

Sorry about my rant but I am a little pissed
 
OK... when I can I will edit the helmet. But I have a few things to say first.

1. Where the HELL is the problem with the rim of the visor?! Looking at reference pics if I had made it completely accurate then that would have been about 1/2 mm thick man!
2. Why do you dis the visor on my helmet, but not on rundowns, or ForgedReclaimer, or Hugh Holder, or anyone else who has made an HD helmet with an HD VISOR?!!!!!!
3. Why do you dis the grooves? Rundown did it on his ODST, so did Forged Reclaimer, and so did Sharkhead on his Iron Man (I think it was Sharkhead) and so did a bunch of other people but do you dis on them? NO!! YOU DIS ON MY WORK!!
4. About the verts in other faces. That was an accident, I was editing the cheek and it just messed itself up.

Sorry about my rant but I am a little pissed

Man, don't listen to those other people. I think you're doing an utterly fantastic job. It's your file so you can make it however you want to make it I say :)
 
Hey, sorry man, I didn't mean to come off so harsh there. I'm not "tryin to dis", I was trying to make you a better modeler for this stuff. I was pretty frustrated myself from trying to unfold your helmet for the better part of two hours. I'll admit I was out of line with my comments. Hope you find an unfolder who can do this some justice.
 
People DID have problems with my odst helmet. But I built it, and it works for me, so I left it at that. If they don't want to deal with HD and would rather sculpt in all that detail there are other great files to work from.

Do work that YOU are satisfied with. If you base your work in 3d on what everyone else wants on this site and what they're comfortable with you'll never be finished with any project.

Now go forth and make awesome


EDIT: Oh and remember what I said about test building your own work? That is pretty important in my opinion. My first model at the odst helm was for 3d printing and needed a massive rework to make it a pep model. Even after I made the first pep versions I probably went back and edited the helmet 3 or 4 times while building it to make things easier on myself. So my super high res odst helm only ended up kinda high res, and all of the cool custom details I added got removed simply because I wasn't satisfied with the build.

(Sorry for bringing up my work on your thread Rhinoc, I just want you to know that you're not the only one having to deal with this stuff.)
 
OK... when I can I will edit the helmet. But I have a few things to say first.

1. Where the HELL is the problem with the rim of the visor?! Looking at reference pics if I had made it completely accurate then that would have been about 1/2 mm thick man!
2. Why do you dis the visor on my helmet, but not on rundowns, or ForgedReclaimer, or Hugh Holder, or anyone else who has made an HD helmet with an HD VISOR?!!!!!!
3. Why do you dis the grooves? Rundown did it on his ODST, so did Forged Reclaimer, and so did Sharkhead on his Iron Man (I think it was Sharkhead) and so did a bunch of other people but do you dis on them? NO!! YOU DIS ON MY WORK!!
4. About the verts in other faces. That was an accident, I was editing the cheek and it just messed itself up.

Sorry about my rant but I am a little pissed
Whoa, no need to get so mad there, Rhinoc! The problems with things are when there are too many small details, it quickly becomes either too difficult or just plain impossible to pep. And seriously, if I was in your place I would be pretty happy, because you have lots of experienced people going out of their way here to help you improve your work.
 
Hey guys... real sorry about that last comment.
I was up all night on a plane to Chicago, I sat next to a dude that looked so much like a terrorist, I couldnt sleep, I was grumpy and reading Flyerfly's comment just... ignited the flame. There was nothing wrong with a helpful comment, but I have just been going through a really bad couple of days. I just moved from Germany and I had to leave behind a crap load of really good friends and yesterday it just... broke. I balled my eyes out at Pier 39 in San Francisco.

Really sorry, I'm just so tired...
 
Hey Rhinoc, Don't feel so down! You just made a superior helmet for everybody, and if anything, it is just too GOOD! You're a fantastic modeler, and you've managed to damn near perfectly recreate a piece that had little to no good reference files for. (Naturally, it's always difficult to find that perfect balance between accuracy and ease of building!) In the little time that I've seen you modeling (about 6ish months), you've managed to become one of the foremost modelers on this site! About your friends in Germany... well, that's why there's facebook and myspace! For all that you've done, I congratulate you and thank you.


Cheers!
 
Once again, I'll apologize for my part in this. I had some free time at work this morning between renders, and decided to see if I could get started on an unfold, for anyone who is inclined to believe they can pep this. I wish I could finish, but I won't have any time to in the near future, so here it is for anyone who wants to finish unfolding it. Once again, this is not a finished unfold, but it is a lot further along in the process than starting fresh. Half-finished unfold linky.

By the way, it looks about like this so far:
kathelmunfinished.png


Can you tell why I was going a little nuts yesterday? This file is so HD it will melt faces.
 
That was after a few hours of work getting the pieces to not be insane multi-page triangle madness (which is pep's fault, not yours). I was responsible for all the pieces being jumbled together like that. I only pulled them all together into a pile because I do my first unfold pass on the model view, and was tired of scrolling all over the 56 pages it unfolded it onto to get pieces. Here's what it looked like right after I hit unfold.

kathelmunfinished2.png


Even when you zoom in quite a bit, a lot of those parts remain solid black just from edges. And if you turn on "show edge IDs" for printing, your computer crashes. At least, mine did.
 
Definitely gonna be the first to test pep this monster...At least I hope to be the one any way...I don't have a password for pep designer so I'll need to wait for Flyerfye to Finnish unfolding....I just finnished an ODST low-mid def helm by NZ-TK(perfect build), and A1TD's Carter high-def prototype(the one that didn't have the spots on the top which the super high-def proto does(minor battle damaged)), a forearm Mk.VI(battle damaged), Halo 3 grenade-frag, and the mag for L3X's SRS99 Halo:Reach version sniper rifle.

I want to volunteer for first build.......Currently making M6B(Halo:Reach M6G), and combat knife by carpaithia99......they can wait for me to finish prototype pep'ing this.
 
Fair warning, Tyvern; this is a seriously unbelievably hard file to build. I've built (and unwrapped) some tough models (Rundown's ODST comes to mind), and currently, this one blows it away in terms of complexity and sheer number (and smallness) of parts.

Rhinoc, do you think you'll have time to do edits on the model soon? I don't want to keep unwrapping this if you're about to release an update (because I do have to start over). I don't mean to impose (and I certainly have no intentions of detracting from your hard work, or of taking over your project), but if you don't have the time, I could do some cleanup on the model. Having gotten pretty far on the unwrap, I have some very slight changes that would make building this a lot simpler, without sacrificing detail.
 
Yeah I was about to get to that! Before I do though could you post some pics of the "impossible" parts... I put parentheses because while possible they are very very hard... that would speed up the process of editing.

Edit: It is also kinda strange... when I modeled it in blender I made it so that it would come out in pretty big chunks, like the groove in the visor could be 2 pieces, one for the top and one for the bottom of the groove and the little thing on the top of the helmet to be like 4 or 5 pieces... but you are the unfolder so what you do is what it is and if what I thought could happen cant, then I am wrong
 
I think I'm up to the challenge, I've done a number of high complexity models with warpage that I was successfully turn into puch dents and battle damge and I could get my friend to do the same helmet with minor slip ups a.k.a. warpage but I would need to wait a month to get the completed assembled helmet back from him to take pictures of it, alternatively we also make the same pep files and challenge each other who could make the fastest and neatest pep.....I win on fastest+some neatness on parts that I knew would be spots people wold see the most...he would win on neatest pep+ he takes a full month to make one helmet or pep piece though it's a little bit faster in the summer.

He and I both have 3 years combined experience on pep.

I think I/he is up to the challenge....bring it on!
 
Well okay then! I'll do my best to make this as easy as possible, Tyvern.

Alright Rhinoc, you ready? It's pic spam time.

This vert is inside the model. If you want to go heavy on the edits, it would make the model a lot easier if the walls of these grooves weren't so steep. The paper likes to try to unfold at that size, which pushes the rest of the plates outward, causing warping. And even if you get it folded that tight, it's also hard to resin it without just filling in the crack, making all that pep and modeling work for naught. Not a biggie though.
01.gif


Any chance you could smooth this out? It's just sort of a jumble.
02.gif


Okay, I KNOW this can be cleaned up. If the program you're using has something like a "make planar" tool, that can really help for pep files. It is a life saver for my work. It may look like quads as you're modeling, but if the quads aren't totally flat (on all 4 corners) it doesn't matter that they're quads, they still end up being tris once they get into pep. That's just how it works. And pep can only interperet them as "triangle madness". Also, I know there are a lot of verts in there that could stand to be removed without any detail loss.
03.gif


Okay, see that part that just looks like a lot of spikes there? You've got bits facing about 5 different directions there, all about an inch long and less than 1mm wide. In paper, this is just going to turn into a blob. It happens at a few other points.
05.gif
 
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