Something That's Been On My Mind As Of Late....

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Sniperbaas

Well-Known Member
Before I go any further, I'd like to explain my history with the 405th. A long time ago, (11 months before the release of Halo 3) I stumbled upon this site while looking for cool Halloween costumes. I was extremely happy to find this site, and I happily made a MC helm and helped my brother with an award winning ODST suit. Although I really didn't look too much on this site after that, I returned around the time of the Halo 3 beta. I still never registered, but I instead chose to lurk around accumulating information. I continued to visit to check on the progress of everyones' work. I registered prior to the release of ODST and began modeling early this year. To say in the least, I've seen this site go through many phases... I remember when Adam and the mods posted in every single thread, and if anyone ever broke the rules, the proper operations ensued... Within the past year, I've watched as this site exploded with a plethora of new information, members, and the problems that come with the "noobs."



My main purpose of this thread is a plea to the moderators and people who maintain this site. The plea is related to the lack of rules that the 405th has evolved into following. Yes, I know that 23Magnum posted this thread http://405th.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12248&st=0&p=186449&fromsearch=1&#entry186449 ,but every day, it seems like many of those rules are openly defied. It also seems as though we need newer rules. (Rules related to harrassment, to begging threads, to readability of threads, to the "gimme" mentality of some members.) I can understand somebody posting a legitimate question that hasn't been posted before. I can understand somebody asking for a modeler to do some commission work, but I cannot stand people begging for models. I cannot understand why people seem to lack the neurons in their cerebrum and cerebellum to merely LOOK at a STICKY! (They're at the top of the page.) We've seen too many people pushed away by the behavior of other members. (AceHigh and Rube seem to come to mind.)



Perhaps, we need a new set of rules and several new moderators (for Ruze and Rundown can run the model section by themselves (they could probably teach a few things to the other mods at times...) .... and Belakor, as much as I love how much time he puts in, is only human.... scratch that.... is only a laser eyed monkey.)









Anyway, that's my little rant, for the day... feel to tell me if I'm a flaming @$$hole or if I have several points...



Cheers

[goes back to modeling and schoolwork]
 

monkeyfist

Jr Member
Yeah. I think you might be right. I know I've asked a lot of stupid questions and nobody has really done a lot about it. I look back and think, "wow, why was I such a tard". I think the rules should be enforced a little bit more. But you know, that's just my 2 pence.
 

Nintendude

Well-Known Member
I've been with the 405th ever since December 2007 and I have seen the members come and go and the lack of sense in topics some people have posted, even since Xtremetactics started helping people with scaling thier file people have still went and posted topics for scaling or help with scaling thier files and have disregarded the stickys that say how to scale your files. I have also seen that the mods that are on the site cannot control everything due to thier real life schedule and R/L comes first over everything else. I can agree I think we do need a couple more moderators to govern the site and member behaviors people that have pretty much a clean record themselves and people that are here everyday if need be. I've helped countless people but there will always be a new member that needs some kind of guidance or help these days and the vetrans whether you be a moderator or not have to be an example to the new people, teach them the right from wrong and if they need help offer it.
 

rundown

Sr Member
Sniperbaas392 said:
Perhaps, we need a new set of rules and several new moderators (for Ruze and Rundown can't run the model section by themselves.... and Belakor, as much as I love how much time he puts in, is only human.... scratch that.... is only a laser eyed monkey.)

[goes back to modeling and schoolwork]



I dont really see the need for that? The modeling section is clean if i may say so. I check more then once a day to close/clean up threads/posts.

I find it hard to believe that you will see something thats not edited within 12 hours.

I even find time to do other subsections.
 
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Sniperbaas

Well-Known Member
rundown said:
I dont really see the need for that? The modeling section is clean if i may say so. I check more then once a day to close/clean up threads/posts.

I find it hard to believe that you will see something thats not edited within 12 hours.

I even find time to do other subsections.



Sorry about that, I didn't mean to say that... What I meant is that you guys are doing a good job with the modeling section, but it's the other parts of the forum that are exhibiting the problems that I mentioned above. You guys do a phenomenal job with the modeling section, but the other sections are usually filled with questions that could be answered in 2 minutes....



Sorry, I'll re-edit my initial post.
 
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mattmann1

Member
Unfortunately this topic will never be seen by those noobs of who are causing much of the problem. All they want to do is post in their own WIPs and ask questions answered over and over again. There are too many model requests and model request threads to keep track of and not enough modelers to do the work. In fact why should they do the work any way.The modelers learned to model themselves so should you. I think that we need to add some willing and active minor moderators.
 

Sniperbaas

Well-Known Member
monkeyfist said:
Yeah. I think you might be right. I know I've asked a lot of stupid questions and nobody has really done a lot about it. I look back and think, "wow, why was I such a tard". I think the rules should be enforced a little bit more. But you know, that's just my 2 pence.

At some point, we have all asked a stupid question, but I think that maybe those people should be directed to the stickies and given a warning...



Nintendude said:
I've been with the 405th ever since December 2007 and I have seen the members come and go and the lack of sense in topics some people have posted............

Yeah, I guess we really have to moderate ourselves, but in attempting to moderate some of the more unruly moderators, we lack the ability deal out repercussions... Because of people's real life schedules, I suggest that a couple of people are upgraded to moderator status.



Squirtle117 said:
Unfortunately this topic will never be seen by those noobs of who are causing much of the problem. All they want to do is post in their own WIPs and ask questions answered over and over again. There are too many model requests and model request threads to keep track of and not enough modelers to do the work. In fact why should they do the work any way.The modelers learned to model themselves so should you. I think that we need to add some willing and active minor moderators.



Although it won't be seen by the noobs, it will hopefully be seen by the veterans, the moderators, and possibly Adam... If they see fit, then maybe they will implement a couple of new changes... (Learning to model isn't an extremely difficult thing to do... (learning to model well is), I'd be happy to see a couple of new members trying that out.... )





Cheers...
 
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AceHigh

Member
Rules or no rules, the same rules should apply to everyone. As of right now, the moderation seem to be based on who is posting rather than what is being posted.
 

23Magnum

Well-Known Member
Yup the rules are the rules...and trust is earned...and that's life...and...and...and...



Truth is there are hundreds of members here throughout any one week. New or old, we(the moderation team) can't keep an eye on everyone. It's impossible. Even if we were all on here every second of the day. It's also a rather 'inefficient use of our time'(to put it nicely) to have to continually slap people's wrists over and over...and over...and over...etc.



Some self moderation would be excellent BUT that's not suggesting you yourselves moderate your fellow forum members. I'm actually suggesting that you moderate your own actions and words. You can point out NICELY to people that their actions and/or words are not in line with our forum guidelines and Terms of Service rules. If they continue stepping out of line or were out of line to begin with, that's when the report feature comes into play.



The moderators actually like to help people on this site. That's why we became moderators in the first place. Unfortunately it seems like lately, I personally have become nothing more than a firefighter or lawman for a large part of my experience on this site. Not really why I enjoyed this place toward the beginning of my involvement here.



So what can you do personally? Well some have already said it and it's not the first time either. Lead by example and treat others how you wish to be treated. It's really as simple as that old, OLD advice.
 

Nintendude

Well-Known Member
23Magnum said:
Lead by example and treat others how you wish to be treated. It's really as simple as that old, OLD advice.

Exactly follow or lead your choice but still remember when you make a negative action on the forums it can reflect back on you at a later time in life sooner or later it will bite you in the rear. Thanks Magnum and people may think of you as a lawman or firefighter but thats only because you were made to be a moderator to put out the fires and prevent the fights.
 
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Brandon McClain

Well-Known Member
I have seen many changes even in the few months I have been here. I would have to agree with most of what has been said. I think an expanded moderation team may ease the burden on those already involved and allowing them to use their time more efficiently.
 

Boba Fett

Well-Known Member
It seems to increase with the dawn of new games... When ODST was in the works, this happened a ton as well. With Reach incoming, it gets worse. The rules should probably be enforced a bit more forcefully, but I understand that you don;t want to scare people away. An expanded moderation team DOES sound like a good idea though. Only about half of our moderators are even active, the other half have not been around for months.



EDIT: and really, self-moderation IS the best method of moderation. But people refuse to do it. They want what they want, when they want it, how they want it, and want someone else to do the work. It seems to be an ever-increasing trend in society.
 

Spartan 051

Well-Known Member
23Magnum said:
So what can you do personally? Well some have already said it and it's not the first time either. Lead by example and treat others how you wish to be treated. It's really as simple as that old, OLD advice.



you can only lead for so long before you give up. I agree what you say but that alone wont fix it
 
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AceHigh

Member
23Magnum said:
Yup the rules are the rules...and trust is earned...and that's life...and...and...and...



Truth is there are hundreds of members here throughout any one week. New or old, we(the moderation team) can't keep an eye on everyone. It's impossible. Even if we were all on here every second of the day. It's also a rather 'inefficient use of our time'(to put it nicely) to have to continually slap people's wrists over and over...and over...and over...etc.



Some self moderation would be excellent BUT that's not suggesting you yourselves moderate your fellow forum members. I'm actually suggesting that you moderate your own actions and words. You can point out NICELY to people that their actions and/or words are not in line with our forum guidelines and Terms of Service rules. If they continue stepping out of line or were out of line to begin with, that's when the report feature comes into play.



The moderators actually like to help people on this site. That's why we became moderators in the first place. Unfortunately it seems like lately, I personally have become nothing more than a firefighter or lawman for a large part of my experience on this site. Not really why I enjoyed this place toward the beginning of my involvement here.



So what can you do personally? Well some have already said it and it's not the first time either. Lead by example and treat others how you wish to be treated. It's really as simple as that old, OLD advice.

What's the point of having such a large moderating crew if the intention isn't to at least try to keep everything under control? If the rules stated are only meant to be enforced when violated repeatedly, it seems redundant to have more than one or two people moderating as most of the posts violating the rules are made by noobs who never make it past 10 posts anyway.



I see two rather large problems with maintaining such an attitude towards rules.



1: When people see others breaking the rules and not getting punished, they will be much more likely to stop caring about the rules as well. This goes for both noobs and veterans of the board. The longer you let problems remain, the harder it will be to get rid of.

2: Those people who do get moderated, having threads locked or getting warned, will feel incredibly unfairly treated. Given the recent DDOS attacks, and from reading past threads, it seems that the 405th has its fair share of enemies. If people are inclined to be hateful and keep grudges, treating them in an unfair way certainly won't help the situation.



Both of these problems can be solved by either scrapping the rules completely, or starting to enforce the rules uniformly. Naturally, enforcing the rules will be taking its toll on the moderating crew and I'm not trying to say that it would be a super easy task. However, there are several solutions to that problem. Assigning more moderators would be the most obvious one. It seems to me that whenever someone breaks the rules, it's always the same people who notify them of their wrongdoing. Giving those people the power to close threads wouldn't add to the burden they already have taken upon themselves as they spend the time anyway, but it would be a major clean up for the forum. There are quite a few other moderator candidates I can think of as well, who maybe don't comment on rulebreaking, but spend a lot of time on the forums. Since most people comment a lot on how the 405th community is so together, I'm sure there would be an abundance of help to be had, if asked for.



As for leading by example, it would be great to see the entire staff and mod crew doing just that. I have seen moderators post every day posts in threads violating the rules. I have even seen moderators violating the rules themselves. I have been blatantly insulted by a moderator for quoting another moderator speaking of rules. When I called him out on insulting me (taking his own advice on starting a thread on the matter), it was effectively swept under the rug. Two other mods and Adam himself posted in the thread I made about the incident. They commented on the rule part, but left out any comments on the fact that I was treated like dirt by a site representative. The post by the moderator magically disappeared too. The site's motto is "Honor, armor, unity". Honor, to me, includes owning up to your mistakes. Honor means being able to apologize for your wrongdoings. I got nothing. No "sorry", no explanation, nothing. Way to make me feel like part of the unity.



After this rant it's likely that most people reading are thinking "what is this idiot doing here if he doesn't like how the site is run?". Well, the reason I'm still here is mainly that there are individuals that make the stay worthwhile. I also think that the forums have a lot of potential. I admire the will of Adam to welcome all noobs, no matter how stupid threads they start. I would like nothing more than for the honor and unity to be more than just the facades they seem to be today. Setting and enforcing rules would be a great place to start.



Here's my suggestion if the current layout of the forum is too much for the mod crew to handle. First, plot down the rules that will be in place. Place these in a separate forum part, above the Elite section, so their presence is clearly visible. Secondly, change the name of the Noob forum to The Sandbox. Make this the only place where new members can post threads (the General Discussion forum is also open for new threads from new members right now). Deliberately make The Sandbox very lightly moderated. Scrap most of the rules for The Sandbox only (apart from obvious ones like no pornography, no harrassment and such) and let people start threads asking stupid questions that have been answered hundreds of times. If a veteran member chooses to venture into The Sandbox, he/she would be aware that there are tons of stupid threads about the same stuff over and over. A little bit of enter at own risk so to speak. I'm quite confident that if The Sandbox is implemented, the moderating crew would have no problem keeping the rest of the forum clean and tidy. Especially if there's some more new blood entered into their ranks.



I write this because I want this forum to be excellent. If I didn't care, I would be long gone by now.
 
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HeavyGunner

Well-Known Member
Without quoting Ace's full text, I agree. Period. Those are all good ideas, and should be thoroughly considered.



Guys, how many more "We need to..." threads need to be started before an honest, complete, and efficient change is made? I've seen 23Magnum's "How would you change the forums?" thread go on for pages without conclusion, and multiple others like this current one. I've seen threads that rant for equal treatment. And also ones where people are just angry.



Can we please make an effort to get some kind of elite group together to plan out an overhaul of the 405th's foundation? Like a group of administrators, moderators and long time members to help to design a new plan for the site? I think that without this kind of effort, this thread, and others like it are going to crash, burn and go unnoticed.
 

Sniperbaas

Well-Known Member
Boba Fett said:
It seems to increase with the dawn of new games... When ODST was in the works, this happened a ton as well. With Reach incoming, it gets worse. The rules should probably be enforced a bit more forcefully, but I understand that you don;t want to scare people away. An expanded moderation team DOES sound like a good idea though. Only about half of our moderators are even active, the other half have not been around for months.



EDIT: and really, self-moderation IS the best method of moderation. But people refuse to do it. They want what they want, when they want it, how they want it, and want someone else to do the work. It seems to be an ever-increasing trend in society.



There are plenty of good people who do moderate themselves both here and IRL, but there are even more who will not obey the rules. They will beg and do the least amount of work possible to achieve something that they believe is "cool". (I call that cheating.)



AceHigh said:
(Editted for space reasons)

Perhaps the sandbox can also be used as a training ground for veteran and longstanding members. Those who constantly venture in to educate those who continually make themselves incompetant, might be worthy of mod status. However, some might even manipulate that system... Perhaps our existing moderators should be the moderators to any new mods...



HeavyGunner said:
Without quoting Ace's full text, I agree. Period. Those are all good ideas, and should be thoroughly considered.



Guys, how many more "We need to..." threads need to be started before an honest, complete, and efficient change is made? I've seen 23Magnum's "How would you change the forums?" thread go on for pages without conclusion, and multiple others like this current one. I've seen threads that rant for equal treatment. And also ones where people are just angry.



Can we please make an effort to get some kind of elite group together to plan out an overhaul of the 405th's foundation? Like a group of administrators, moderators and long time members to help to design a new plan for the site? I think that without this kind of effort, this thread, and others like it are going to crash, burn and go unnoticed.



I'm not saying I'm a "veteran" member, but I think that this summer might be a good time for the mods and Adam to maybe have a meeting.



So, I'd like to ask "Is something going to change on here, or will we continue to lose valuable talent?" If not, then I'll shut up and return to my little hole in the ground. I can guarantee that we will be seeing more veteran members leave. If there is something that will happen, I ask openly "What can I do to help?" I can guarantee that there are plenty of guys who would be more than willing to help moderate, set up, and give advice on making this site the best site it can be.





Sniperbaas392 signing off.
 
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soul products

Well-Known Member
"What can I do to help?"



ill double that



also i think we can debate and plan all we want but without something to really SHOW for whats the point. how about we start nominating people (with their approval) to be mods, or lesser mods. we do it right here, set a deadline and then send the list of people who are willing to wield the hammers to adam. then hope for the best.

the only problem with the nominations is that people might nominate based on prop biulding skill, they need to be nominated for being the people who even though they arnt mods, help mod the forums by telling people to back off, warning about doubles and all that jazz
 
I also think that we need something to try to prevent 3D Model theft. We already lost dung0beetle, and I don't want to lose anymore.
 

Nintendude

Well-Known Member
soul products said:
"What can I do to help?"



ill double that



also i think we can debate and plan all we want but without something to really SHOW for whats the point. how about we start nominating people (with their approval) to be mods, or lesser mods. we do it right here, set a deadline and then send the list of people who are willing to wield the hammers to adam. then hope for the best.

the only problem with the nominations is that people might nominate based on prop biulding skill, they need to be nominated for being the people who even though they arnt mods, help mod the forums by telling people to back off, warning about doubles and all that jazz

I think a PM needs to be sent to Adam first letting him know aboput this topic unless he has seen it already and ask him if there should be a nominations topic made for people to be made Moderators.Other than that it sounds like a good idea.
 
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