Age discussion

[Deadguy]

For the sake of argument, let's say that the 18 year old barrier isn't a barrier for legal concerns. Let's look at the issues beyond that. Obviously, that issue is not hampering groups like the SCA who beat the crap out of each other with sticks, so assuming we can get past it too, what would we want to strive for?

Legalities aside, where do you guys think the cut off should be? I think it's obvious that we can't have 3 year olds or something, so where should the cut-off be, and why.

I want reasoning better than "8, cuz I'm 8", and "18 because I'm 19 and not a kid". My own Opinion has it around the 14-15 year old mark, merely because I know of kids even younger than that who can follow the rules and act reasonably mature. If they broke the rules, they'd be correctedly accordingly and perhaps removed from the club, just like anyone else.

I mean, who knows.. perhaps the club's age limitations only apply to events? What age would be a reasonable age requirement at that point?

 

[Loess]

Since the SCA age rules have come up, I'll chime in. The minimum age to fight is 16 years old, If a parent or guardian is on site to mind them and they have a notarized waiver signed by their parents. They basically have to have someone who's legally responsible for them at all times to protect the SCA from liability.

[Edit] This is mostly for larger events. For informal local meetings, the rules aren't quite so strictly enforced. (except for minimum fighting age, that one isn't messed with)

 

[LastSpartan]

I'm not against age restriction, but I don't think the younger should be "kicked out of the site"

I think they (we) need the older to help us build on own suit.

 

[metalsplinter2]

Its not a height thing, its not discrimination, its simply avoiding liability. One of the adults would have to be a legal minder and responsible for the children. Of course anyone of any age can be a member on the forum, its get togethers that pose the legal problems. Say little Jimmy wants to troop, little Jimmy is 13 years old, during the troop little Jimmy falls over because his boot gets caught on a pot hole in the road. Its not his fault, walking in armour is hard and armour can pose a threat to its wearer so, he breaks his collar bone and wrist. Because Jimmy is under the care and guardianship of the appointed 405th child minder, the club becomes liable for all little Jimmy's medical expenses. Children cant sign waivers, you have to be 18 before your signature means anything.

I must say he has a point but I believe with a legal contract saying the club is not reliable for any accidents would avoid all that. For example have a word document stating what the club is not responsible for and have signature of parents or guardians and must have them call a member to confirm that they signed it and understand that we are not responsible.

If there is a a cut off point I believe it be at 16 or 17 main reason everybody will have a permit or license. Just a my opinion judging I'm already past that point if it be 18 or 21 I'm fine but I feel for those that are >18.

Just a thought if we have 2 different things for example the official 405th like trooping and stuff for bungie and the regular where we all show up to conventions no matter what your age but must get approved of armor if your wearing armor.

Just my opinion.

I'm not against age restriction, but I don't think the younger should be "kicked out of the site"

I think they (we) need the older to help us build on own suit.

I don't think you will be kicked out it just you won't be able to go to parades and trooping and other stuff for bungie or something lol. In the mean time let Adam decided this stuff all this typing and reading will give everyone a head ache.

 

[AoBfrost]

Adam once said people who have pep suits would be in a lower class, while those with molded suits would be higher, this was a while back when people were arguing about age and suit quality.

Remember, the 501st, their suits are all similar, many of the same suits just mass made for the fans, here at 405th, everyone makes 1 suit or more, but making more of them takes alot longer than it does to make a stormtrooper.

Age was a problem, alot of the members who were 12-14 or so didnt want an age limit because they'd be left out, but many older people wanted a age limit, hard to decide, but it's adam's group, he is the leader, he makes all the rules, so what he says and does goes, adam is a fair person, so he will come out with the right choice in the end.

 

[SpartanForever]

Ima make a quick point here.

15 or 16 up:

- More mature
-probably have better armor (not generalizing)
- can drive...
- Can work, leading to money, leading to paying for stuff like trips to cons and stuff (let alone being old enough to travel alone)
- Realistic

 

[Kaya Tetsu]

I beleive 15-16 ish as well. At 15 you can have a job and depending on the state your in, drive. Usually kids get their license as soon as their parents let them.[off topic] I know i need to get mine *shifty eyes* I've had my permit for a year and half at least....stupid knee[/offtopic] If you have a job you have money to spend on your suit. If you can drive you can go to local cons and if you're 16 you can fly without the hassel of an unacompanied minor ticket (trust me they are a pain!). By that age you SHOULD be mature enough to conduct yourself in a repsonsible manner. I'm not saying younger kids can't be mature and I'm not saying everyone 15 and older is either. I had to say that last part before I get torn to bits by the 13 and 14 year olds.

As for the legal barrier the call thing is a good idea,but why not a waiver that has to be notarized? I think it should have to be notarized cus I know a lot of kids that forge parents signatures for stuff...

 

[rvb4life]

Yeah as a 16 year old, I think that i have more maturity and more of a responsible position than a 14 year old would.
plus, i can go paintballing on my own without anyone holding my hand

and 16 is a very real number for an age cutoff, because most people allow their children to be more independent at high school age, because they earned it. most of us have either finished puberty or are almost done, so its all a matter of "how much can we trust you wont go off on your own"


I think that If there is going to be an age cutoff, it should be at either 15 or 16. But, if it is at 17 or 18, do it in about a year. I can wait a few months


I have contributed to this forum, and I think that if you have contributed enough, you deserve to be in it without the fear you may be kicked out at any time. many of us younger people have that fear, because we care about this group and we hope we can be part of it, for we are proud, and we are the flesh of it, where the mods are the backbone and skeleton.

And have you played ANY M-Rated game lately? if 10 year olds can get away with playing GTA or God of war (PS2 FTW), 16 year olds can get away with being in a club making armor as a harmless hobby.


Rant time over.

 

[CMANavy]

There are some great ideas here and I really like adopting the SCA rules.

Now to officaly join I still think you must be 18. But in order to troop you can do so at 16 with the notorized statedment from a Parent/Legal Guardian.

The reason also for the age 16 cut off is most 16 year olds are more or less at their final size and if they dump money into a suit it should still fit them 2-3 years later.

Flow Chart for being accepted:

1. Game/Movie Quality Suit ? If yes, go on to #2. If No, please try again.
2. Are you 18? Yes, Welcome to the 405th! If No, Please reaplly when you Register to Vote and or Register for Selective Service.

Flow Chart for Trooping at an OFFICAL Event:

1. Game Movie Quality Suit? If Yes, Welcome! If No, want to help out the armored troopers?
2. Are you 18? If yes Welcome! If No, are you at least 16 years of age with a Notorized Memo from you Parent or Legal Guardian say that you may participate with the 405th and release us from all liabilty? If Yes, Welcome!

 

[kyzzzle360]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Spartan137 @ Mar 12 2008, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your right. My bad.

But still, it would kind of isolate the younger members from the group untill they were 18/21. We technically would not be allowed to go to public events wearing 405th sanctions. We could go armored, but I, for example, would need to build a second arm piece because I plan to put the 405th logo on my right forarm. We would also not be allowed to man any possible 405th booths (although we shouldn't anyhow)

I know that you can create groups that allow younger people to be in it. The BSA and GSA are two examples (scouts). I'm not going to go as far as too say that the older members wouldn't register the group as not accepting younger members on purpose, but I think that people <21 arn't allowed in groups with people >21, for some strange gov. reason.

Maybe the 405th could have a sort of "Initiate" program (If the feds allow it), were younger members can partake in some if not most/all of the same things the older members can. It would, again, kind of keep us involved in the community.

But it would be great to be recognized by the government, and stick it to the 501st.</div>

ahaha better than be out there doin some serious crimes.

 

[Deadguy]

I'm not against age restriction, but I don't think the younger should be "kicked out of the site"

I think they (we) need the older to help us build on own suit.

I can solidly confirm that no one is being kicked out of anywhere due to age. That much is official, and has been stated many times.

Adam once said people who have pep suits would be in a lower class, while those with molded suits would be higher, this was a while back when people were arguing about age and suit quality.

Age was a problem, alot of the members who were 12-14 or so didnt want an age limit because they'd be left out, but many older people wanted a age limit, hard to decide, but it's adam's group, he is the leader, he makes all the rules, so what he says and does goes, adam is a fair person, so he will come out with the right choice in the end.

Adam isn't the only one working on this stuf, and we want your input. Adam can theoretically overturn any decision that we come up with in there, but he doesn't do that. He's allowing it to progress as a series of group decisions.

Some of what might have been said before may, or may not, apply to the finished club. In my opinion, the concept of levels and stuff may not even be brought up again. We're not on that section at the moment, so it's hard to guess, let alone generalize, but the the overall "vision" seems to be evolving as we all get a better understanding of what each of our decisions are creating.

Back to topic though..
I'm seeing a 15-16 year old cut-off point as being the most "defensible", and agree that under that age, your life is SUPPOSED to consist of being under the supervision of various adults at least for MOST times. I can also see where that age group is where a child is expected to be able to start making their own choices, getting jobs, driving cars etc.

The legal aspects, I don't want to discuss at this point, except to say that we've already at least touched on them, and what I'm hearing from here now, are things we've previously discussed. The SCA model has been investigated, and is still being explored to some degree. Please don't keep returning to the legalities at this point, the idea here is to pretend that we've eliminated that issue, adn let's see where it takes us.

 

[Vexona]

I think this has always been more of an issue regarding liability rather than maturity. I think most people here *are* mature and level headed. IIRC, the age limit is mostly suggested for legal and book keeping reasons.

Take this waiver from Habitat for Humanity, for example. The scenario is that a responsible young person wishes to volunteer to help build a house. The guardian and minor both agree, in written documentation, to a variety of releases and assumptions of risk.

I'm sure all the younger members could probably fill something like this out with their parents, no problem . Unfortunately, I think the trouble lies in the 405th writing this document properly. The example waiver seems pretty standard but it *is* drafted by legal counsel with knowledge of their state laws (each state has slightly varying policies regarding the terms of guardianship, liability, and care of minors).
The 405th's documents would need to address those issues and I personally think it would be hard for a layman to produce an adequately descriptive/protective legal document. Any vagaries could put the 405th at legal risk for being sued...yikes hehe. Each waiver would be similarly time sensitive and may only be pertinent to a single event (like a convention) so a responsible party would need to organize and maintain all these forms.

So, in short, the amount of paperwork for maintaining/organization groups of 18+ would be logistically simpler, that's all. Everyone 18 and up is automatically responsible for the themselves and the 405th assumes a lot less risk that way.

There are a variety of ways to include younger members, waivers or no, officially or casually I've always known this group to be very inclusive and friendly. I wouldn't worry about being 'left out' as I'm sure the moderators will decide something that reflects everyone's best interest


Now...have at you!

Haha couldn't help it.

 

[NZTK]

Vexona, your picture made me smile.

 

[Vexona]

Vexona, your picture made me smile.

Hehe

 

[WheresDaChief]

I read most of the larger points of this topic and I understand both sides of this discussion. I may have missed this somewhere but honestly, for those under 18 years old, what's stopping you guys from forming an under 18 year old's 402nd or whatever number you choose division? You guys can make your own website and form your own charters and yet still be attached to the 405th. This would remove all the legal issues involved and still yet you guys be involved in some way, shape or form. I know you guys can do this...every generation is smarter than the last so I know you guys wouldn't disappoint in any way. Just my 2 cents...opinions?

 

[Deadguy]

ok.. so that's another group that's able to combine the adults with minors legally. Can we kinda stick towards the assumption that legality is not an issue so we can progress with a discussion though? There's a point to this discussion, but we can't have it as long as the legal issues cloud the water.

When the time comes for this to be dealt with, it will be handled by lawyers, not composites of existing documentation, by laymen, etc. Therefore, if we are at a point where it's cool, it really WILL BE cool. If we're doing it, it will be because we've solved those issues.

There are other groups that do this already, including folks beating each other with big sticks, shooting at each other with paintballs, and even using power tools along with living accomodations alongside adults. So I think that it's not absolutely outside the realm of possibilities for us to walk around in a parade or whatever.. So let's please move past that for the time being and discuss the other aspects.

The first order of business is to determine a cut-off point; I'm sure as heck not going to lawyer's office and saying.. hey, advise me based on ANY child of ANY random age.

If we can get some kind of agreed upon age to start with, this can be unravelled, bit by bit, as we determine what we really want out of this.

Another question is Vex mentioned that there are ways to keep them involved without making them members.. can we elaborate on that kind of thing? It may turn-out that the only things "blocked" by not being a member is use of the logo, a memberID, and ability to identify as a 405th member.

If that's the case, there may really not be a point to letting anyone under 18 on board. We won't know that unti we talk it through though.

 

[WheresDaChief]

ok.. so that's another group that's able to combine the adults with minors legally. Can we kinda stick towards the assumption that legality is not an issue so we can progress with a discussion though? There's a point to this discussion, but we can't have it as long as the legal issues cloud the water.

When the time comes for this to be dealt with, it will be handled by lawyers, not composites of existing documentation, by laymen, etc. Therefore, if we are at a point where it's cool, it really WILL BE cool. If we're doing it, it will be because we've solved those issues.

There are other groups that do this already, including folks beating each other with big sticks, shooting at each other with paintballs, and even using power tools along with living accomodations alongside adults. So I think that it's not absolutely outside the realm of possibilities for us to walk around in a parade or whatever.. So let's please move past that for the time being and discuss the other aspects.

The first order of business is to determine a cut-off point; I'm sure as heck not going to lawyer's office and saying.. hey, advise me based on ANY child of ANY random age.

If we can get some kind of agreed upon age to start with, this can be unravelled, bit by bit, as we determine what we really want out of this.

Another question is Vex mentioned that there are ways to keep them involved without making them members.. can we elaborate on that kind of thing? It may turn-out that the only things "blocked" by not being a member is use of the logo, a memberID, and ability to identify as a 405th member.

If that's the case, there may really not be a point to letting anyone under 18 on board. We won't know that unti we talk it through though.

Ok fine sorry...age of 18 then...for NON legal reasons.....

 

[SpartanForever]

Are you kidding, you guys dont want 18 and unders to form their own website... first its mean and second WED BE LOSING PEOPLE!!! The point of the website is to get people to join and have fun.... So i say 16 and thats final.

 

[Deadguy]

So you think 18? or you think I'm pushing for 18? Why not post your opinions on it?

As I noted earlier, I'm looking at probably 15-16.. but maybe there's no point to making a battle of it if everything is essentially availible to non-members anyways.

What if:
You guys can still wear costumes, and even hang-out with the club at events, but you wouldn't be an actual member. There's nothing stopping a complete stranger from having a costume on and joining a parade, or helping out with whatever charity thing happens to be going on or whatever. Anytime something is in a public place, there's the possibility of the public being involved. Now, when it comes down to private homes, hotel rooms, meetings, or possibly exclusive get-togethers, etc.. that'd be a separate thing entirely. However, without membership, a lot is still theoretically possible.

 

[Deadguy]

Are you kidding, you guys dont want 18 and unders to form their own website... first its mean and second WED BE LOSING PEOPLE!!! The point of the website is to get people to join and have fun.... So i say 16 and thats final.

What?

What's stopping anyone from forming their own websites? Just how much control do you think we'd have over that anyways? This discussion is purely about the club, and ADDITIONAL THINGS, that will become part of the club.. not a clsoure of what you're currently accessing.
Why not tell us why 16 looks good to you?