Why can't we be friends?

[Combust]

We already have one. It's called the Stickies. Noobs don't read them, why would they download and read a massive PDF? As good an idea as it is, I don't think it's a solution.

Akademee, I basically have the same story as you, there. And, I agree, it was having to wait for reg to open that made me as civil as I am, now.
*Snip*
So, I guess, my point is, sober the new kids up by makin' 'em wait to register. Gives 'em a chance to learn.

I disagree. Shutting the doors on new people is not a valid way for a community to function. Even if its for a short time.

I do however agree with a PDF document along the lines of '405th 101'. There was a single post (Which i cannot find at this point) that went through the basic steps involved in creating a set of armor using pep/fiberglas etc and it was perfect. As long as the PDF is not laid out like the stickies in the Noob section it will go down a treat.

Now, many of you may be wondering what is up with my “obsession” over the tutorials/stickies? Let’s face it, the current stickies are not perfect. They need to be re-written and re-organized in the same format so they are VERY easily understandable, are less confusing, and pictures and videos are included for further help. Hopefully this would help members more opposed to them being pointed to a bunch of broken and sometimes confusing and outdated tutorials. This may stop a large portion of the problems we are experiencing here. Again, I’ve offered to do this more then once, yet I have not been given the official go-ahead.

The first thing that came to mind when i stumbled across this site and was looking through was "Wow, whoever let the stickies get to where they are should be shot!" IMO they need to be trimmed back to the bone.

This being said they are a gold mine of information for noobs but they are the equivilent of throwing 30 different car manuals to someone new to driving. There is just too much information. Silly questions will be asked at the end of the day. I also understand that the internet is filled with randoms who fly by and pester instead of learn. Its the nature of the beast.

Perhaps you should be cracking down on things a little heavier moderation wise before you shut up shop. I have only been active on this forum for a little while now but have lurked for at least 6 months and its seems only recently people have pulled the pin and left in a huff. What has been differernt recently to push those people over the edge?

Anyways this is my 2c from someone whos newish to the community. And hopfully not rambly


Cheers,
Chris

 

[Purrie]

Well to clear up this thread before it moves on any further there is this thread: http://www.405th.com/showthread.php/28129-What-do-you-want-to-see-on-405th.com where you can post ideas/suggestions. I'd suggest posting in there where it's more likely to be seen by the mods and such

 

[alix965]

Being a very new noob, I see this from both sides of the argument. I fully and totally agree that before they start banging out questions and demanding that someone make them something for free, they need to just shut up and read the stickies. I've read a bunch of them, and even I have some issues wrapping my head around the details... I'm an Airframe and Powerplant mechanic and I know how to do fiberglass and resin structural builds. But the intricacy of the work I've seen from many of the people here is way beyond me, detail wise.

Read this paragraph and try to take it in...especially the part I highlighted in BOLD, and think about the creative potential this so-called noob could bring to this particular forum. And then consider how even a man who is not new to practical work in fibergalssing and such is in a whole new element when it comes to the things that the members here do. I've always thought the Halo game campaigns were the kindling to subject matter that was intended for mature aduiences ie; religious zealots bent on humanitys destruction. The multiplayer portion, not so much ie; spawn and team killers!. Halo REACH, being the juggernaut it is, attracted a lot of younger players. Perhaps moreso than the other Halo games.

This trend was in turn helped by the accessability provided by magazines like the OXM article featuring the 405th. Also I recently stumbled upon a How-To by Backyard FX featuring how to make an MC suit on the cheap (BTW the suit they made wasn't very screen accurate, it had some weird odst type chestplate.) BUT they had a cuter, more edgier and brunette-er version of Kari Byron making the suit, so she made up for ANY shortcomings in the build. Point is the people who got hooked on Halo CE way back in '01 are VERY different from the ones frequenting youtube and OXM 10 years later.

Although I respect the individual choices made... I try and fail to understand how abandoning this forum can possibly help the situation. This is not a critique of any of the members whom have chosen to step back but to me it's tantamount to letting the inmates run the asylum. Resources and potential friends lost...maybe forever. The NOOB apocalypse is something that has to be allowed to come and go with a grain of salt. In the end only the dedicated ones will stay and we, as a group will be better for it.

p.s. I swore I wouldn't post anything more than 300 words long anymore, but my two cents on an issue this important merited it. Thanks

 

[ventrue]

Since this discussion is going pretty nicely so far, let me just drop a few (or rather a lot of... sorry! ) words as well. They probably don't have much weight, because I'm not a veteran myself, but anyways...

Thats true and Jester, i also agree with a instruction mandatory, maybe having it manditory to read before entering the forum or maybe a downloadable document new people can read, but no to long so that it makes them not want to read it.

What I read here a lot is the word "reading". You seem to forget that the info is all there, in the stickies and if anybody wanted to read them, nobody would be stopping them.

The problem here is not availability, the problem is convenience. The info is there, but it's just not easy enough. Many noobs have an impatience that is dwarfed only by their laziness, and reading large tutorials, no matter if they come in the form of a nicely formatted PDF or a plain text forum post, is something they will simply not do. And if they do, they're not the noobs this discussion is about.
Basically, if it looks like it will take longer than a few minutes to read and comprehend, it's too long. And you all know that you can spend countless hours here just researching, so making all the info noob friendly is going to be one hard job. I'm tempted to say it's impossible.

I think that a tutorial video would be the best course of action. Especially young people seem to totally dig video (and hate text - you can see by the way they write that the art of writing is slowly being forgottenz). Adam's noob orientation video seems to get rather positive feedback, so why not start by sticking that right on top of the main page (and I mean the web page, not the forum)? It looks professional, it sounds at least a bit intimidating ("Hey, you! Yeah, you! The admin is talking to you!") and I think it does carry some weight with the noobs, the only problem right now is that they don't see it unless they bother somebody enough to give them the link.

How-To by Backyard FX [...] they had a cuter, more edgier and brunette-er version of Kari Byron making the suit, so she made up for ANY shortcomings in the build.

I'm sure Skullcandy Girl will be pleased to hear that you think she's "cute" ;-)

Since I was just talking about videos let me just say something about the Indy Mogul video you're talking about as well: It's pretty good, but more in an entertaining-inspirational-encouraging sense. It's like watching a documentary on TV and when it's over, you think: "Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know they made these costumes from paper!"
This is of course great for a network that makes "shows [...] focused on DIY filmmaking, cheap special effects, [and other stuff]", but it's not so great from the 405th's point of view, because it is also creating the (sadly false) impression that this can be done cheaply, easily and very quickly. That is what many noobs want to hear and it's what's leading to people asking to trade a chocolate bar for a helmet or starting out with a totally wrong impression of what they're getting into.
I think the better way to approach these potential problems from the 405th's standpoint is to condense everything people do not want to hear (money, time, work, safety) into a few crystal clear sentences and really make sure people get these.

 

[darknemisis]

i know alot of people that after they finish the initial build they make molds of their pieces and do casts and yes it is alot of time and yes it does cost alot of money but if people want to trade "chocolate bars" for helmets then that is ok too

 

[alix965]

Well said Ventrue. Yer the good kind of NOOB. heh.

But alas we have a minor celebrity amongst us? NOICE! She reminds me of what Lisbeth Salander would look like if she were American. I was under the impression that SKG was out on the west coast with the Legendary guys. If she's in New York I may have seen her at the NYC comic-con at Jacob Javits and not even known it. And yes I don't pay much attention to the location box of a post. I have a new respect.

 

[Squire]

I am new to this site, i am a noob! I like what you guys have here i just want to fit in i dont say much, i dont bad mouth i add constructive criticism i will never tell some one there project looks like **** you should trash that and start again becaus every one need to start somewere and to start we need to ask questions, there is a lot of info on this site and it took me months of reading before i started my Commando project wich i found the pep file on here (thanks a lot) any way what im trying to get at with my ranting is people don't like to take the time to read they want straight awnsers and ask the same questtion till the get an awnser that has been posted 10,000 times any way i just dont want to be seen as one of these derogative noobs.

It's all with the times i guess though the Ipod generation now and here!

so just dont see me as an ass i have many good qualities my bigest down fall is that i cant spell and im not good at math lol there is my 10 cents, any way time for me to stop typing cuz im ranting and saying the same stuff as the original posts

 

[Devious]

The stickies are good they just make it too hard to understand, anything. What we could do is take ALL the stickies and put them in a new forum where you can't post called the 405th library, so the members who want to learn more then just the basics in the handbook can get that info.

I will now start a handbook topic and a search for helpers. This is something we need.

 

[darknemisis]

indeed it is my young padawan

 

[alix965]

The stickies are good they just make it too hard to understand, anything. What we could do is take ALL the stickies and put them in a new forum where you can't post called the 405th library, so the members who want to learn more then just the basics in the handbook can get that info.

I will now start a handbook topic and a search for helpers. This is something we need.

I have a better idea;-) Why don't we start a poll to sort out out the good noobs and the bad noobs. We can nominate and then vote on who is the most noobtatsic of all the people we've noticed being the BAD kind of noob. we can then have an intervention type of thread started and correct the offending behavior. The tricky part would be agreeing on what is considered to be severely noobish and what is just 405th naivete. The response to this friendly hazing will go a long way in determining the mindset of said noob. However in accordance to universally accepted play yard ground rules, I hereby claim the Not-It title of unconditional amnesty.

{cautiously steps back:cool} Have at it boys...and girls.

 

[Boba Fett]

NO! NO! OH GOD NO! That will cause millions of problems... more than I can say here. Plus it's putting people down, destroying friendshipps, I could go on. Very bad idea.

 

[Spartan 279]

That's... basically what I said a page back. I agree 8D

Also, deleting old posts isbad... just like adventchild, I regularly go through the search options to find old posts on problems I have, rather then create new ones on old topics (which is what one of the issues we have is). For instance - earlier this week I spent half an hour reviewing old threads on techniques concerning boot creation. I read about 10 threads. Deleting these would just cause an influx of new threads from people other then the new noobs, imo.

yeah. One of the old threads I still look at is i believe someones spartan laser from 07. i loved that thread.
also, i agree with alix. that could be a good idea or just something to like ban or set straight the bad noobs

 

[weeds]

I too am a noob. That is a noob as far as the 405th goes and building armor from Pep. At 51, the noob tag is entertaining to me.
When I first came upon the 405th I was amazed. I was amazed that there were so many people who thought that making Halo armor was a good idea (or a great idea), amazed at the work involved, and amazed at the results. Clearly I want to be part of this community. I want to build armor. These guys are crazy Halo fans and not afraid to show it. What fun!
I came here to find out “how do they do it?” Not, “What can these boys (and girls) do for me?” I saw Adam saying, “here is what it means to join the 405th forums. Update your profile, introduce yourself, READ, and get to it.” He made it pretty clear – the 405th isn’t here to babysit you as you make armor, it’s a community that you can participate in. And so I read. There are stickies to tell you how to scale and how to get Pepakura, how to paint and even how to cut the pieces out, the list goes on. To me, it’s a rite of passage. Everything I needed to get started was here. (everything I need to finish is here too) I just had to sit down and read it. The organization isn’t perfect and there were some dead ends, but so what? There is a wealth of information here and all I have to do is read.
I could never have figured this all out myself. The first thing I want to say is thank you too all the old guard.
Back on point, what I see here is the evolution of the internet. Everyone is anonymous, there are minimal consequences for your bad actions.
The forums were closed when I first wanted to get in. I wanted to know how this was done so I read even more. I don’t know if that would work for everyone, I already had that mindset.
Nothing you do can force a noob to read. Even if you say you can only see the manual for a month, that doesn’t mean they will read it. I would suggest proof of action before letting new members post. I think the idea of some pictures of some decent pep work or other qualifying work would show the sincerity and the ability to learn by reading. The second thing you can do is ban the abusers and publish the reasons for banning. Access to the 405th is a privilege, not a right, and as such it comes with responsibility.
I haven’t posted a single question and I now have the Pep designer so I can scale and arrange, Pep viewer for build support. I know how to scale (not that I’m perfect), and how to assemble with hot glue. I found the .pdo files and now have a hand pale, a forearm and a thigh in pep. Requiring noobs to get to this level would keep a lot of the nonsense questions down.
Despite being new, I can read, assemble info and I have written/edited technical manuals. I would be happy to help in any way to organize or even with 405th 101. Wat you guys have built here is awesome and I would gladly contribute in any way.

 

[Spartan 279]

I too am a noob. That is a noob as far as the 405th goes and building armor from Pep. At 51, the noob tag is entertaining to me.
When I first came upon the 405th I was amazed. I was amazed that there were so many people who thought that making Halo armor was a good idea (or a great idea), amazed at the work involved, and amazed at the results. Clearly I want to be part of this community. I want to build armor. These guys are crazy Halo fans and not afraid to show it. What fun!
I came here to find out “how do they do it?” Not, “What can these boys (and girls) do for me?” I saw Adam saying, “here is what it means to join the 405th forums. Update your profile, introduce yourself, READ, and get to it.” He made it pretty clear – the 405th isn’t here to babysit you as you make armor, it’s a community that you can participate in. And so I read. There are stickies to tell you how to scale and how to get Pepakura, how to paint and even how to cut the pieces out, the list goes on. To me, it’s a rite of passage. Everything I needed to get started was here. (everything I need to finish is here too) I just had to sit down and read it. The organization isn’t perfect and there were some dead ends, but so what? There is a wealth of information here and all I have to do is read.
I could never have figured this all out myself. The first thing I want to say is thank you too all the old guard.
Back on point, what I see here is the evolution of the internet. Everyone is anonymous, there are minimal consequences for your bad actions.
The forums were closed when I first wanted to get in. I wanted to know how this was done so I read even more. I don’t know if that would work for everyone, I already had that mindset.
Nothing you do can force a noob to read. Even if you say you can only see the manual for a month, that doesn’t mean they will read it. I would suggest proof of action before letting new members post. I think the idea of some pictures of some decent pep work or other qualifying work would show the sincerity and the ability to learn by reading. The second thing you can do is ban the abusers and publish the reasons for banning. Access to the 405th is a privilege, not a right, and as such it comes with responsibility.
I haven’t posted a single question and I now have the Pep designer so I can scale and arrange, Pep viewer for build support. I know how to scale (not that I’m perfect), and how to assemble with hot glue. I found the .pdo files and now have a hand pale, a forearm and a thigh in pep. Requiring noobs to get to this level would keep a lot of the nonsense questions down.
Despite being new, I can read, assemble info and I have written/edited technical manuals. I would be happy to help in any way to organize or even with 405th 101. Wat you guys have built here is awesome and I would gladly contribute in any way.

a-goddamn-men

 

[Arioch]

Well, Ive been through this before and ran my own forums a few years back. The ways I controlled this stuff began with warnings/bannings and progressed to things such as requiring a current member to sponsor new members and help them get along and fit in.

(Actually, the 405th Mentor Program reminds me somewhat of this)

New members petitioned the moderators in an application forum, which was reviewed by mods and potential sponsors. Applicants were required to meet certain criteria, and if accepted into a sponsorship, had limited posting abilities based on a probationary period. Once probation was complete and sponsorship had ended, more forums and editing capabilities were allowed to new members.

As time and continued good behavior progressed, more forums opened up to members, eventually this led to more people who wanted to become sponsors, and enjoyed helping each other.

The place went from a napalm factory to a brotherhood in less than a year. This may not work everywhere, but it is something to think about.

It seems that people who spend time and effort to find their place among the 405th may just be more amiable than just any web troll that stumbles in and wants free stuff.

Ah well... I hope I am not out of place to suggest these things.

Thanks for listening.

-Jon

 

[DaFlea]

After taking a break for about a year I decided to get back into the swing of things and I quickly noticed a different feeling about the forms.

Thus bringing me here to read this thread.

I would like to point out from a NooB's perspective it can be very daunting to start building armor. I spent months reading the forms before posting my first post due to fear of being bashed for a rule infraction. If i'm not mistaken I did get bashed by a non mod, because he stated I was hi jacking a thread. Which was not my intention when posting and the topic starter didn't have any issues regarding it.

The bottom line is you get excited when looking at some of the great pieces of work that have been produced here so I would expected to get asked all kinds of questions good or bad. Its the nature of the beast, and when you have volumes of information to go through a lot of times its easier to ask a question. The hand book is a novel way of helping to condense a lot of this information, but people have to read it. So its a fine line to get someone up to speed when there chomping at the bit to get started.

Some key things to follow to make someone feel welcome is:

a- If your not a Moderator its not your job to point out rules. I cant count how many threads have been destroyed because of this action.
b- Who cares if its a stupid question its still a question, I am quite sure another Noob knows the answer and can help. Your dealing with a huge age group here and not everyone knows how to mix bondo.
c- Always be positive you can roll your eyes later. We could be taking the wind out of someones sails that could be a true contributor here.
d- Remember who you are talking to because you can easily offend someone. I happen to be 41 and when a younger person chimes in with a disrespectful comment it changes the tone of the forum post. No one likes to be talked down to and its seems that you have to have good skills to earn respect. That should only be part of the equations for a great community.

In a nut shell I think the forums need to be restructured some and the handbook should be created. It should be quick and clean so that it covers the highs and links to the lows.

We need to get this place back to the way it was going because it really feels a lot different around here.

Thanks,

Doug

 

[weeds]

Has the idea of local user groups ever been tossed around? In a couple of hours with a laptop, a printer, a projector, and a couple of pages of handouts, I could have a room full of NooBs well on their way to the joys of Pepakura in no time. The veterans could come in and show their work, trade ideas, and inspire the NooBs showing off their armor. Some kind of update about what worked and what didn't as well as any new ideas would get posted to the forums. That could cut out a lot of the repeat questions and show who really wants to participate.
By the way -
On the topic of dropping old members, an "old" member just chimed in on this thread, so I don't think dropping outright is a good idea. Maybe a warning to update your email and then a warning to inactive members via email with a period to renew (just get on and say "I'm still interested"). Then the bounces and those who are no-shows are dropped.

 

[DaFlea]

Well the idea of this place is a global user-group because everyone is already here... I'm thinking more like some web casts where you can nail a bunch of NooB questions.

 

[weeds]

A webcast would work too. My vision is a little like the extension of the military paradigm. Adam already did the orientation. That's what you get when you step off the bus. This is boot camp. I imagine a group working together to build a thigh piece. There are a lot of advantages.
1. hands on
2. real people, not just "fred37" and "flypaper"
It's a lot harder to be rude in person than on a board or email.
3. see the completed stuff for real
4. meet some of the veterans (there's that military analog again.)

With the number of users there are and NooBs coming in every day, seems there would be critical mass to make it happen.
Attendance (Webcast or user group) could be mandatory to get access to the forums.

And let me say one more thing... If you told me today, "Get lost till you show me six well sized and completed pieces of Pep." I would smile and say, "I'll be back." And then go off and finis... Dang, just glued my fingers in to a thigh piece... Where was I, oh yea, go off and finish my pieces and be back with pride ready to dive in again.

 

[Boba Fett]

I feel I should add something. Everybody seems to think problems are stemming from, “n00b” avalances or the equivalent. That’s really not the problem. The issue is people, “n00b” or otherwise, who are disrespectful, skirting around the rules, being arrogant, etc. Exactly what my first post was about. I LOVE to see newbies com to the forums, because they can have a LOT of positive and encouraging feedback, techniques, viewpoints, etc. It’s all positive. The problem is a lot of times, instant gratification is the only thing they will take. Some person saw a video with someone in a Master Chief suit, and went: “OMFG! I WANT! GIMME GIMME!” Ok, I’m sure EVERYONE reacted that way at some level, but the problem is that a lot of people take that impulse and spew forth ignorance when they visit the site. That is the thing that is ruining the experience for many. Because these people start posting in a continuous wave, veterans become frustrated because of the same old “Stupid” questions being answered. Now the problem: eventually, s person that just wants to learn and asks a somewhat stupid question gets flamed. This leads to a domino effect, where a lot of people get upset, and many times, the newbie will not contribute further because of the bad experience.

We need a remedy:
1. first, the moderators need to start stepping up and start swinging the banhammer. In the legendary armor thread, skullcandygirl has been swinging left and right. (While I have some reservations about that, the point is she’s not afraid to use it. If there is a violation, dole out punishment.) What we need is a clear, VERY VISIBLE set of rules, and they apply to you when you join the site. If you violate the rules, deal out a ban appropriate length. If someone swears, ban for a day. Swears again, ban for 3-4 days. Another swear, ban for a week and issue them a final warning. If it continues, perma-ban that person. If rules are not enforced, they will not be followed. Really, I’ve seen very few bans around the 405th except for recasters and exceedingly disrespectful members. Other than that… And it needs to apply to ALL members, elites, veterans, and noobs alike.
2. A “cook-down” period of some sort. Either space out registration, give members limited access to the forums for say, a month or something comparable. That avoids the, “hyper rush” surging with adrenaline.
3. A revised “sticky” program. Have 1 forum, specifically designed for information. And instead of having 10,000 stickys lying about, put up 1 “tutorial hub” where there is a link to ALL the stickys. Classify them according to say: pepping, hardening, fiberglassing, bondoing, painting, etc. you get the point. Skullcandygirl did something similar, and it WORKED!
These are my ideas. Critique as you like. Not perfect, but I think it gets to the core problems and attacks those. Thoughts?